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Post by Danno on Aug 12, 2024 19:14:41 GMT
I doubt he, Davies, Nicola Adams and anyone else that's exposed their hateful arse in the last month have particularly lengthy contracts. It should be easy enough to not bother renewing them.
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 13, 2024 12:06:05 GMT
It's all really unhelpful noise to a complex ethical debate. I'm also not sure the rush to immediately accuse anyone unhappy with the IOCs handling of the boxing as being transphobic is helpful. Pinsent may be, I don't know the bloke but it's surely possible to hold progressive views and still have concerns about their processes or lack of.
There is no evidence to suggest either boxer is not female so of course they should be kept out of it as it's totally unfair to insinuate otherwise.
There was no standardised scientific testing for whether any athlete competing in the female category was DSD because the IOC decided it wasn't necessary. There should be a discussion around whether this should remain the case rather than about the boxing specifically.
Sport has binary categories and bodies aren't binary. Pretending there's no conflict here doesn't resolve anything or help anyone long term. I also don't think shutting down the conversation helps (not aimed at anyone here obvs).
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cubby
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Post by cubby on Aug 13, 2024 12:28:37 GMT
I may be naive but I feel pinsent's take comes from an organisational pov. The Olympics themselves don't organise or regulate any of the sports, they use the existing governing bodies that regulate those sports themselves. So athletes like pinsent are used to the bodies like World Rowing, which themselves are bodies consisting of the national bodies like British Rowing, to be the authorities, not the ioc, when it comes to regulation.
In this instance it is probably warranted for the ioc to say fuck off iba, we'll take over, but it is highly unusual for that to happen.
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 13, 2024 12:42:58 GMT
I did notice when glancing to see what people are referring to that the places I found Pinsent's comments reported in were The Mail, GB News and The Telegraph. So, I have little doubt that they were being selective and I wouldn't be surprised if there was more nuance than it appeared from those articles (and, to be honest, the comments even there didn't seem as mad as you get from the likes of Sharon Davies).
I'm sure that there is a debate to be had with the topic in general and it is one that should take place delicately and with compassion for all sides. Unfortunately though, it always seems that the quite clearly transphobic people are the ones that get the most attention.
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Post by simple on Aug 13, 2024 13:17:13 GMT
I doubt he, Davies, Nicola Adams and anyone else that's exposed their hateful arse in the last month have particularly lengthy contracts. It should be easy enough to not bother renewing them. Don’t cancel me - but I’m slightly surprised that a woman who is build like and presents the way Nicola Adams does doesn’t have some sympathy of how much it would suck to be called a man just because you don’t have a “typical” Disney Princess figure. I’m pretty sure it was part of the narrative of her Strictly ‘journey’ too. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Aug 13, 2024 14:06:18 GMT
Gonna post this again here as it's relevant. Explanation of the many different factors and conditions that sometimes affect bodies and sometimes do and sometimes don't affect performance. www.bbc.com/news/articles/crlr8gp813koIt sounds like it'd be possible to set up a relatively logical list of conditions that do/don't affect performance and test for them, but of course that takes more time, money and sensitivity than just making a blanket binary ruling. Personally, I thought about 30-40% of the female competitors across various sports looked relatively masculine. Which is most likely due to training regimes and their affect on muscle mass, etc.. But it's not hard to believe that a reasonable proportion of female athletes over the years might have had some form of beneficial condition. It's just that in the past no-one was aware of such things. The BBC article mentions people in their 50s or 60s who were totally unaware that they had any condition, so it's highly likely that some athletes would have a condition that would make them naturally gifted in certain sports and never know it. Heck, being naturally gifted in certain sports is basically down to genetic advantages anyway, so it's all on a scale. It'd be funny if someone like Sharon Davies did a test and it turned out that she'd done so well because of something similar. |
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on Aug 13, 2024 14:26:13 GMT
Laura Woods sharing a Telegraph article doubting Imane's biology too. It is very strange, all this doubt suddenly now even with all the years she's been competiing in. Plus her history and background, it should be quite easy to look at it all and realise it's a case of Occam's Razor. But instead they're looking at someone like "You are what I think you are, not what you say you are", guessing what her genitals look like. And they say other people are the weird ones.
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 13, 2024 14:37:44 GMT
It is also worth noting that beyond just the unpleasantness of doubting the gender of Khelif, Algeria does not have laws around gender recognition and same sex relationships are illegal. LGBTQ people do suffer huge amounts of abuse there, including vigilante attacks and killings. www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/algeria/ |
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 13, 2024 14:40:01 GMT
That is indeed a good article. I tend to think that whilst there is probably no perfect way to reconcile the various conflicting aspects, at least be being lead by science you reduce emotion, bias and misinformation. The IOC has this far basically said they're not getting involved, other than show us your passport and pass a drug test.
I don't like Sharon Davies her politics are horrible but she did have what would have been the highlights of her career ruined by cheats with unfair physical advantages from drug abuse. So I get why she'd be especially sensitive to perceived physical injustice.
Similarly I can see why female athletes who have worked their whole life and then lose to someone with DSD (diagnosed or otherwise) would feel aggrieved. We have gender categories for competition to allow XX women to win the big prizes. So either the categories need to be removed or there needs to be a scientific definition for the categories and independent reliable testing.
It's somewhat similar to the challenges of Paralympic categories. Very hard to define what's fair for a given category and then sensitively test for compliance. It's literally what the sports governance is for. Otherwise we know people and countries cheat.
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Post by Duffking on Aug 13, 2024 15:01:49 GMT
As far as I know all of the women who've been embroiled in these controversies also so far happen to have not been white.
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Post by Danno on Aug 13, 2024 15:50:59 GMT
Not a speck of evidence about her gender outside of what a disgraced Russian (yeah those guys that are absolutely beyond reproach when it comes to fairness in sport) head of an organisation stripped of its authority for corruption said after she beat a Russian boxer. I hope she sues the cunts into the ground.
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on Aug 13, 2024 16:39:06 GMT
It is also worth noting that beyond just the unpleasantness of doubting the gender of Khelif, Algeria does not have laws around gender recognition and same sex relationships are illegal. LGBTQ people do suffer huge amounts of abuse there, including vigilante attacks and killings. www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/algeria/The common retort to this is that they believe Imane isn't a trans man but a man born from birth. Something that can be easily disproven. Something that people only miraculously seem to have thought of now and not in all the years she's competed. Like the IOC and every other organisation just...didn't check |
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Post by simple on Aug 13, 2024 17:41:17 GMT
Have the haters had anything to say about the fact she competed in the 2020 games and lost early on to a lass from Ireland?
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Post by brokenkey on Aug 13, 2024 17:45:29 GMT
As far as I know all of the women who've been embroiled in these controversies also so far happen to have not been white. Telegraph has noted your complaint:
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Post by Duffking on Aug 13, 2024 21:51:19 GMT
Khelif apparently suing Rowling and Musk, nice.
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on Aug 13, 2024 22:26:50 GMT
Have the haters had anything to say about the fact she competed in the 2020 games and lost early on to a lass from Ireland? About as much as they recognise that the Italian boxer has publically apologised for her statements about Imane made after the match and she didn't want it to continue. Or that this supposed XY chromosome in Imane's system was never verified. |
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Post by grey_matters on Aug 13, 2024 23:13:41 GMT
Have the haters had anything to say about the fact she competed in the 2020 games and lost early on to a lass from Ireland? Hey now, I'm sure you meant to say "from that two-time Olympic gold medalist from Ireland"*. *Although admittedly zero Olympic medals at the time of that fight |
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Post by cristar on Aug 14, 2024 12:22:44 GMT
LA dropping Breaking. For most of us probably a blessing but then I’m old. You didn't have to watch it. Tbf you'd have to have no social media app at all to avoid that Aussie piss take dance. |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Aug 14, 2024 12:29:50 GMT
You didn't have to watch it. Tbf you'd have to have no social media app at all to avoid that Aussie piss take dance. check |
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Post by simple on Aug 14, 2024 15:07:42 GMT
Given that Breaking is being replaced by Cricket we might not be escaping Aussie pisstaking so easily.
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 14, 2024 15:24:32 GMT
I hadn't seen it! And I couldn't find it very easily when I went to look it up, as everything I found was someone's hot take on the dance rather than the actual routine itself (which I'm guessing is due to rights issues with uploading it).
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Post by Whizzo on Aug 14, 2024 16:27:44 GMT
Given that Breaking is being replaced by Cricket we might not be escaping Aussie pisstaking so easily. Wouldn't be too surprised if Team GB goes the football route and doesn't put a team forward.
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Post by Syrette on Aug 15, 2024 11:32:03 GMT
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Post by Whizzo on Aug 15, 2024 11:57:41 GMT
Don't think we're getting an Eddie the Eagle like movie about Raygun.
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mrpon
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Post by mrpon on Aug 15, 2024 12:05:52 GMT
 Sorry, I know there's hundreds of these. I just lost it at this XD |
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Post by rawshark on Aug 15, 2024 12:52:28 GMT
I briefly popped back on Twitter (I’ll be dead in the cold cold ground before I call it X) to watch a video someone posted on here, and god knows why but my feed was wall to wall abuse for this poor woman.
Does no one understand the Olympics is traditionally an amateur competition? If anything people should be more pissed off at the inclusion of professionals like Djokovic or LeBron James.
And it’s been a long standing tradition to have an Eddie the Eagle or Eric the Eel thrown in for a bit of light relief. She didn’t kill the sport. The fact that it’s not a sport killed the sport.
And you know what… I didn’t think she was that bad.
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Post by Bill in the rain on Aug 15, 2024 13:59:35 GMT
I only watched the final, which she wasn't in, and it was very dull. So I'm not sure it's all her fault.
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Psiloc
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Post by Psiloc on Aug 15, 2024 15:26:05 GMT
It's easier said than done but I think the best way out of this for the Aussie breakdancer is to own it, laugh it off and be in on the joke. In this weird world of ours there is probably even a fuck load of money to be made if she can capitalise on it
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Post by dfunked on Aug 15, 2024 15:49:53 GMT
Looks like she's more than capable of capitalising. She's doing the letter F above.
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Post by muddyfunster on Aug 15, 2024 16:05:49 GMT
As far as I'm aware, she's a compus mentis healthy adult who qualified and did the routine she wanted, how she wanted. Maybe she's been let down by the Aussie selection process for it getting that far but unless she's a vulnerable individual in some way that's where my sympathy ends.
Obviously what she was doing was not what the other girls were doing and surely this can't have only dawned on her at the 11th hour? She even said she can't compete on athleticism by way of justification as to why she makes up her own moves. I can't compete on athleticism either which is why I didn't attempt to qualify for the gymnastics team despite being able to do a passable forward roll and waggle my arms around.
If she just owns the joke there's probably a lot of money in it. Think of the endorsements and appearance fees. She may never have to work again if she plays this right.
Or she can continue to be all Liz Truss about it, which makes it funnier.
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