Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Sept 12, 2021 18:32:42 GMT
It's amazing that between Red Bull's massive pitstop fuckup, and Mercedes' minor one it managed to put them out on the same bit of tarmac. These guys are destined to have an arse hair between them all season.
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Post by Red_Bool on Sept 12, 2021 20:12:51 GMT
You'd think they both would know better by now. When they face any other driver going into a corner they keep it clean(ish), but as soon as it's the two of them it becomes a mess.
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Post by damagedinc on Sept 12, 2021 20:19:28 GMT
To be fair, it started off pretty clean, Lewis was backing out of the 50/50's. Silverstone broke that, he realised he's going to have to fight toe to toe with max. Can't keep yielding.
I don't for a second believe that max wanted to hurt lewis or cause him any danger. However I believe he had red mist, stuck behind Danny, crap pit stop and then seeing lewis there. I think maybe even subconsciously he thought "fuck it, I'm going for this and what will be will be" in some ways I can understand but again it's similar to Silverstone.
If he he just held back. Another opportunity may have come to him or he would have scored points. He could have easily have ended up in the gravel again with lewis carrying on had the car not landed on him.
Just think the hot head moments are what will lose it for him.
These two won't yield to each other, too much at stake and it's too close. I imagine the stewards gave them both a dressing down and told to keep it clean for future.
Like that's gonna happen lol.
Bottas to win the championship odds? If these two keep smashing each other out.....
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X201
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Post by X201 on Sept 12, 2021 21:31:28 GMT
It's amazing that between Red Bull's massive pitstop fuckup, and Mercedes' minor one it managed to put them out on the same bit of tarmac. These guys are destined to have an arse hair between them all season. Diameter or length? |
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Post by snackplissken on Sept 13, 2021 10:30:58 GMT
I do enjoy all these heated debates on Max vs Lewis. Tribalism entering the F1 arena. In the end it's two guys who'll do anything to win.. sure limits are being pushed over, but as long as no one gets seriously hurt that's what makes F1 interesting again.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Sept 13, 2021 11:23:32 GMT
It's one thing fans doing it, but Hill and Herbert were scandalous yesterday. Herbert in particular was pathetic, shouting over everyone like a child having a tantrum. The difference between the post race and Ted's Notebook was eye opening. Two guys very obviously given orders from above to shut it. Get Jenson and Nico back ASAP, for the love of god.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 13, 2021 13:49:10 GMT
To be fair, it started off pretty clean, Lewis was backing out of the 50/50's. Silverstone broke that, he realised he's going to have to fight toe to toe with max. Can't keep yielding. I don't for a second believe that max wanted to hurt lewis or cause him any danger. However I believe he had red mist, stuck behind Danny, crap pit stop and then seeing lewis there. I think maybe even subconsciously he thought "fuck it, I'm going for this and what will be will be" in some ways I can understand but again it's similar to Silverstone. If he he just held back. Another opportunity may have come to him or he would have scored points. He could have easily have ended up in the gravel again with lewis carrying on had the car not landed on him. Just think the hot head moments are what will lose it for him. These two won't yield to each other, too much at stake and it's too close. I imagine the stewards gave them both a dressing down and told to keep it clean for future. Like that's gonna happen lol. Agreed, it's Lewis that has been forced to adapt. Max has been consistent in his approach across his whole F1 career and in many ways why should he change, given the stewards accommodate it, his bosses endorse it and he has gained loads of fans for his 'ruthless' approach. Can't blame him with sticking with what works. He's reminiscent of Senna who had a similar pathological conviction regarding his own superiority that meant he genuinely expected the other person to vacate in all 50/50s. There was no room for the idea that he might have misjudged it, or that their claim was equal. Hamilton has realised that somewhat surprisingly, Max is racing exactly the same as he always has (there's no more pragmatism this year than previous). The rules of engagement he'd refined against the old guard like Webber, Kubica, Button, Raikkonen, Vettel and Alonso aren't viable against Max. Lewis was a master of positioning his car to the very limit of those 'old' rules to 'win' the corner but if he does that now, Max won't accept the corner has been lost and doesn't back out, so it requires more aggression to prevail. Effectively Max poses a straight choice. Either a) yield because he never will or b) hold your ground even and accept contact is probable. Option a) means you lose all of the time, option b) means you lose some of the time. If Max was racing Max, he'd never finish a race. With Lewis no longer yielding either, we are in a position where Lewis and Max can't cleanly race each other, which isn't great for the sport. It's a direct consequence of allowing the increasingly aggressive racing of the last five or so years. We saw Leclerc change his approach after he lost a win at Austria 2019 to Max and now Hamilton has adapted as well. These guys are intelligent so as soon as someone pushes the boundaries further and gets away with it, the rest simply follow and over time what's acceptable gets ever more dangerous. Will be interesting to see how long it is before Russell reaches the same conclusion. I don't love the idea of loads of specific rules governing overtaking but we have to stop the 'move or we crash' overtakes and defending from being worth the risk. It's not 'hard racing' and brave when someone 'sends it' from far back and only survives because the other guy takes emergency evasive action, it's reckless and deserves a penalty whether there is contact or not. Likewise if you defend late on a straight. It's F1 not BTCC. |
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Graxlar
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Post by Graxlar on Sept 13, 2021 13:58:15 GMT
It’s a shame though as there have been a number of races where Alonso and Vettel have shown how good the racing could be if there is a desire to challange each other whilst caring about finishing the race.
One of the key points that stood out to me this weekend was Max’s ‘you need two people to make the corner’ line which just seems to be him saying. People need to move out of my way.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 13, 2021 13:58:47 GMT
Probably sounds tribal, but to be clear I don't blame Max. It's how the sport is officiated that is the problem here. Intentionally or unwittingly he's creating these situations as test cases, and the stewards have not responded with any consistency or clarity, only reacting when there's contact rather than proactively enforcing certain standards. Now everyone is confused as to what's hard but fair and what is too hard and unfair.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Sept 13, 2021 14:08:00 GMT
Tighten up what 'significantly alongside' actually is (I'd argue way further forward than the current interpretation has it to avoid bullshit dive bombing) and then set a hard-line requirement for space to be left throughout an entire corner (or series of if a chicane) for the defending car when the above requirement is met. Contact is made and no space is left; Defending car takes the penalty. Contact is made even though space has been left; Attacking car takes the penalty.
Then make said penalties actually take effect in the race, rather than utter nonsense like the Perez one this weekend where he was allowed to stay ahead and determine as and when he took the penalty. Stop/Go or race suspension for 2 incidents a season or something.
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Post by damagedinc on Sept 13, 2021 14:08:53 GMT
Taking away any knowledge of rules or the sport. If you were to watch a replay of the move yesterday I think you say its max's fault.
He was too far back and there was not enough room for him to undertake on the inside.
The expectation that Lewis should take a wider approach to the corner and miss the apex because he has to anticipate max wanting yo try and make that move...to me seems silly.
In that corner in that particular scenario max has to back out.
As said above. The rules allow for this kind of move.
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Post by damagedinc on Sept 13, 2021 14:10:04 GMT
Tighten up what 'significantly alongside' actually is (I'd argue way further forward than the current interpretation has it to avoid bullshit dive bombing) and then set a hard-line requirement for space to be left throughout an entire corner (or series of if a chicane) for the defending car when the above requirement is met. Contact is made and no space is left; Defending car takes the penalty. Contact is made even though space has been left; Attacking car takes the penalty. Then make said penalties actually take effect in the race, rather than utter nonsense like the Perez one this weekend where he was allowed to stay ahead and determine as and when he took the penalty. Stop/Go or race suspension for 2 incidents a season or something. Yeah this makes sense. I would say front tyres being level/ drivers being level or wing mirrors. However you want to reference it. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 13, 2021 14:26:13 GMT
It’s a shame though as there have been a number of races where Alonso and Vettel have shown how good the racing could be if there is a desire to challange each other whilst caring about finishing the race. One of the key points that stood out to me this weekend was Max’s ‘you need two people to make the corner’ line which just seems to be him saying. People need to move out of my way. Absolutely. Alonso and Vettel are well versed in the 'old school' etiquette and they speak a common racing language. Doesn't mean they never make misjudgements but fundamentally they can recognise and respond to each others car positioning, understand intent, have a degree of trust and react accordingly. You can't race 'tough but fair' if you send those signals and the other guy just ignores them. That comment of Max's was one of the reasons I made the Senna comparison. |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Sept 13, 2021 14:33:42 GMT
The track has a lot to answer for yesterday too. Max would almost certainly have gone into Hamilton whether there was a sausage kerb there or not. But instead of it being a minor incident both could have probably driven on in the race from, the oscillation has caused a driver to have been an inch or two away from potentially being paralyzed or worse.
Again, sort out track limits once and for all with a hard-line stance and we don't have any need for parts of a track that can fling a car up into the air.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 13, 2021 14:47:54 GMT
Tighten up what 'significantly alongside' actually is (I'd argue way further forward than the current interpretation has it to avoid bullshit dive bombing) and then set a hard-line requirement for space to be left throughout an entire corner (or series of if a chicane) for the defending car when the above requirement is met. Contact is made and no space is left; Defending car takes the penalty. Contact is made even though space has been left; Attacking car takes the penalty. Then make said penalties actually take effect in the race, rather than utter nonsense like the Perez one this weekend where he was allowed to stay ahead and determine as and when he took the penalty. Stop/Go or race suspension for 2 incidents a season or something. Yeah this makes sense. I would say front tyres being level/ drivers being level or wing mirrors. However you want to reference it. Yeah I like this suggestion as well. Think it will be hard to define what adequate 'space' is though. On Sunday the pundits couldn't even agree where the edge of the track was. Di Resta and Massa seem to think as long you have two wheels on the line your in, Herbert was arguing the whole car. Modern interpretation vs old interpretation again. Problem with the 'two wheels is on' definition is that whilst it works for tarmac run offs what happens if there's grass or gravel or massive car launching kerbs, the other side of the line? The 5sec penalties are used too much in lieu of stronger action. There are loads of situations where you'd happily buy track position in exchange for +5s penalty. I'd suggest giving drivers a chance to drop back behind the car unfairly passed before they pass the start/finish twice, or they receive a +20s time penalty. |
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 13, 2021 15:06:33 GMT
Tighten up what 'significantly alongside' actually is (I'd argue way further forward than the current interpretation has it to avoid bullshit dive bombing) and then set a hard-line requirement for space to be left throughout an entire corner (or series of if a chicane) for the defending car when the above requirement is met. Contact is made and no space is left; Defending car takes the penalty. Contact is made even though space has been left; Attacking car takes the penalty. Then make said penalties actually take effect in the race, rather than utter nonsense like the Perez one this weekend where he was allowed to stay ahead and determine as and when he took the penalty. Stop/Go or race suspension for 2 incidents a season or something. Thinking about it, the only significant issue with Solid's proposal is that is still only results in action after contact is made, which is a key shortcoming of the existing stewarding. There has to be penalties for making a dangerous move that still results in a 'clean pass' like Max on Lewis at Barcelona T1. Not sure how such a rule could be worded, but if you have to rely on someone else's self preservation instinct to avoid an accident you shouldn't be allowed to maintain the position and the FIA should come down hard. It's like in football, a two footed studs up jumping challenge is still a red card even if the attacker jumps out the way because you are endangering an opponent. The fact the attacker managed to anticipate and avoid serious injury isn't material in the decision. |
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Sept 13, 2021 15:20:47 GMT
It's where I believe 'signnificantly alongside' needs a rethink. The current interpretation encourages divebombing way too much and make drivers believe they have more right to a corner if they get slightly alongside another car at any point than they really should.
If there were, say, a predetermined point in the entry to a corner you had to be the new interpretation of 'significantly alongside' in order to kick in those rules, I think it would make things a lot clearer. I don't think you're ever going to see an accident-free, controversy-free F1, but at least we'd be able to very quickly go "Well he wasn't alongside early enough when he made that move so he's at fault for that", rather than leaf through an ever more vague rulebook to try and apportion blame.
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Post by TheSaint on Sept 15, 2021 13:14:45 GMT
Watched the first 30mins or so of Schumacher at lunch. Seems good so far.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 15, 2021 13:42:47 GMT
Youtube recommended this to me earlier: youtu.be/wBJjOXYCZGkPity Kayalami got neutered, it was such an epic, fast circuit. Would be good to have a South African GP again (now that they've stopped being so damned racist), but I'm not sure if the new track is actually any good. Seems like the best section has been lost. |
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Post by brokenkey on Sept 15, 2021 16:49:13 GMT
Watched the first 30mins or so of Schumacher at lunch. Seems good so far. Telegraph rated it 1 star because we don't get to see Michael's empty body. |
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Post by suicida on Sept 17, 2021 12:15:58 GMT
Big news for the future of British riders in Moto3, amazing they've managed to put this together in just 3 weeks!
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 20, 2021 9:07:03 GMT
To be fair, it started off pretty clean, Lewis was backing out of the 50/50's. Silverstone broke that, he realised he's going to have to fight toe to toe with max. Can't keep yielding. I don't for a second believe that max wanted to hurt lewis or cause him any danger. However I believe he had red mist, stuck behind Danny, crap pit stop and then seeing lewis there. I think maybe even subconsciously he thought "fuck it, I'm going for this and what will be will be" in some ways I can understand but again it's similar to Silverstone. If he he just held back. Another opportunity may have come to him or he would have scored points. He could have easily have ended up in the gravel again with lewis carrying on had the car not landed on him. Just think the hot head moments are what will lose it for him. These two won't yield to each other, too much at stake and it's too close. I imagine the stewards gave them both a dressing down and told to keep it clean for future. Like that's gonna happen lol. Agreed, it's Lewis that has been forced to adapt. Max has been consistent in his approach across his whole F1 career and in many ways why should he change, given the stewards accommodate it, his bosses endorse it and he has gained loads of fans for his 'ruthless' approach. Can't blame him with sticking with what works. He's reminiscent of Senna who had a similar pathological conviction regarding his own superiority that meant he genuinely expected the other person to vacate in all 50/50s. There was no room for the idea that he might have misjudged it, or that their claim was equal. Hamilton has realised that somewhat surprisingly, Max is racing exactly the same as he always has (there's no more pragmatism this year than previous). The rules of engagement he'd refined against the old guard like Webber, Kubica, Button, Raikkonen, Vettel and Alonso aren't viable against Max. Lewis was a master of positioning his car to the very limit of those 'old' rules to 'win' the corner but if he does that now, Max won't accept the corner has been lost and doesn't back out, so it requires more aggression to prevail. Effectively Max poses a straight choice. Either a) yield because he never will or b) hold your ground even and accept contact is probable. Option a) means you lose all of the time, option b) means you lose some of the time. If Max was racing Max, he'd never finish a race. With Lewis no longer yielding either, we are in a position where Lewis and Max can't cleanly race each other, which isn't great for the sport. It's a direct consequence of allowing the increasingly aggressive racing of the last five or so years. We saw Leclerc change his approach after he lost a win at Austria 2019 to Max and now Hamilton has adapted as well. These guys are intelligent so as soon as someone pushes the boundaries further and gets away with it, the rest simply follow and over time what's acceptable gets ever more dangerous. Will be interesting to see how long it is before Russell reaches the same conclusion. I don't love the idea of loads of specific rules governing overtaking but we have to stop the 'move or we crash' overtakes and defending from being worth the risk. It's not 'hard racing' and brave when someone 'sends it' from far back and only survives because the other guy takes emergency evasive action, it's reckless and deserves a penalty whether there is contact or not. Likewise if you defend late on a straight. It's F1 not BTCC. Really good article on the same topic. Makes similar points but much more articulately expressed than I managed and has some good pertinent quotes. TLDR - Max is technically doing nothing wrong (i.e. it's within the current rules), but his approach has created a new situation which is dangerous. The phrase 'fascinating but frightening' is perfect. |
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Graxlar
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Post by Graxlar on Sept 20, 2021 14:42:32 GMT
That was a good read and pretty much ties into my understanding.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 20, 2021 15:23:29 GMT
Probably my favourite F1 journo. Initially, I don't always agree with his position, but he invariably articulates his thinking very rationally, calmly and methodically and I often find I'm persuaded by the end (in this case we were clearly on the same page to begin with).
He's very good on their podcast as well, if you like that sort of thing. He's the softly spoken Geordie one.
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Post by suicida on Sept 20, 2021 16:46:04 GMT
I do like the-race their MotoGP coverage is excellent.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 21, 2021 10:58:52 GMT
Just stumbled on a replay of the 2016 Sochi race start on Youtube. Of course, I remembered 'the torpedo' incident, but I'd forgotten that Kvyat managed to hit Vettel three separate times in the space of about 10secs! Truly special driving, the onboard is hilarious, as if he was trying to make absolutely certain Seb had to retire.
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Solid-SCB-
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Post by Solid-SCB- on Sept 21, 2021 11:19:58 GMT
“For fuck's sake, who the fuck, oh I’m out, crashed, somebody hit me in the fucking rear at Turn 2 and then somebody hit me in the fucking rear again at Turn 3. For fuck’s sake, honestly what the fuck are we doing here?”
Sebastian Vettel 2016 or me in every online lobby on F1 2021. Take your pick.
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 21, 2021 11:40:56 GMT
I also enjoyed Kvyat's desperate call to his own engineer as he continued to T2 "what the fuck is going on?" as if he had no idea why his front wing might be broken.
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Gruf
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Post by Gruf on Sept 21, 2021 11:48:29 GMT
Turns out in game chat is also simulated in iRacing accurately as well, everyone effing and jeffing  |
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Post by muddyfunster on Sept 22, 2021 11:20:41 GMT
the-race.com/formula-1/the-f1-engine-upgrade-red-bull-honda-has-secretly-been-using/Pretty interesting and I wonder why they felt there was a need for any secrecy at all. It's not like Honda have done anything wrong, nor is it a component that rivals can realistically observe and copy. I have to admit, I really didn't think Honda would turn things around so quickly from where they were three years ago. They do appear to now have produced 'at worst', the equal best F1 engine package. In doing so, they've made Renault and Ferrari look a bit ridiculous. It's possible that Mercedes have effectively let others catch up by directing their engine resources to what comes next, but given what comes next is an engine freeze (end of this year), that seems very unlikely. Mad that they are walking away when on the cusp of success yet again. I guess we partly have Honda to thank for the more pragmatic engine rule discussions that might get VW in, but the Honda board are surely going to end up looking like idiots yet again. Spend all the R&D money to make the best F1 engine before an engine freeze then let others to rebadge it, and take all credit during a four year period when any performance advantage will be locked in and any R&D spend (on the current engine at least) will be minimal.
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