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Post by mothercruncher on Sept 15, 2023 18:58:20 GMT
I know you haven’t! That point has been made several times. Counter points have also been made several times.
I can agree that extra accessibility *could* be added, I can’t that a developer *should*. This is a creative industry, it’s not a binary thing and there’s no single way to make games.
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Post by Vandelay on Sept 15, 2023 19:02:49 GMT
It looks fab, but sounds like it lacks a touch of finesse 😙 Which is true of pretty much all non-From Soulslike games. We can complain about camera angles, weapons randomly going through walls or whatever the odd glitches are, but the attempts from other developers show just how well balanced and designed the From games are. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 19:03:26 GMT
Did people not start sharing strategies and information online because Demon's and Dark Souls were obtuse and they were having difficulty so they wanted to make it easier to get through it? I was just about to post this as a counter to your argument actually. I appreciate that things have changed and From are huge now (and Elden Ring is absolutely easier than the earlier games) but I don't think Demon's and Dark Souls would have been such hits if they had been easier. At the beginning of the souls journey it was all about overcoming this enormous challenge, people asking for and giving advice online. All of that type of stuff added to the word of mouth and the reputation of the game. The 'git-gud' stuff came later, and to be honest I've never come across it much anyway. For me they've always been games that are about finding ways to beat the odds more than skill . I think, rightly or wrongly, that Miyazaki is reluctant to stray too far from the formula that has made From one of the biggest developers in the world. But they've reached a point now where Elden Ring was played by everyone and their YouTuber granny, so maybe it's time to start being more inclusive
There are people who play the games at level 1 with no armour. Some don't use guides or forums or anything. Some people like finding broken builds or ways to cheese bosses. Some people just love discovering all the lore and putting it together. Everyone plays and enjoys them differently so why are people so precious about 'the intended way' to play the game?
Let everyone enjoy it however they want to. It's a video game. A bit of fun
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hicksy
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Post by hicksy on Sept 15, 2023 19:32:14 GMT
Allow everyone to enjoy something are you crazy?
How are peeps going to rant on about something everyone enjoys?
Madness!
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Frog
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Post by Frog on Sept 15, 2023 19:43:08 GMT
I think its also the third person fantasy action RPG isn't that massive a genre and now when someone makes one they instantly try and make it really difficult as it's a "souls like". Be nice to be able to relax and work your way through an interesting world sometimes without having to stay hyper focused the whole time.
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neems
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Post by neems on Sept 15, 2023 20:11:43 GMT
To be clear, I wouldn't care if they introduced an easy mode. But it's not me you need to convince.
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 20:37:55 GMT
Did people not start sharing strategies and information online because Demon's and Dark Souls were obtuse and they were having difficulty so they wanted to make it easier to get through it? Why is an easy mode so abhorrent? People already heavily lean on aids to play the games as it is I just don't understand how people can be talking as if they just take the game as it comes It's OK to make the game easier your way, even part of the experience, but to lower some numbers is destroying The Vision FWIW there's different ways and levels of "making the game easier", sharing strategies and tips is not quite the same as an easy mode in that sense. Looking up and learning a strategy (supposing it isn't a boss-breaking exploit or something) doesn't mean you just win next go. You still have to figure out which strategy works best for you (because chances are you won't find just the one), prepare it, learn how to implement it, learn the boss/situation well enough to know when to implement it... Meanwhile an easy mode could easily eliminate the need for a strategy entirely. It's like knowing the solution to a door's trick lock but still needing to figure out how to get there, versus the door suddenly becoming rickety enough to just bash down. Again, both are equally acceptable IMO, but they're not the same thing. |
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Lies of P
Sept 15, 2023 20:40:22 GMT
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 20:40:22 GMT
(also it's kinda funny how something you were talking about like this not too long ago:
In any other game, 'sharing strategies', 'Wiki diving', etc would be considered cheating. It is cheating in my opinion and you're ruining it for yourself. I don't really see the point in playing it like that. Certainly not getting uppity about people wanting the game to be easier
you're now using to help your argument. Debates innit  ) |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 20:51:42 GMT
I'm not bothered if people do it though. I was just enjoying passively aggressively ruffling some feathers by implying they might be weak casuals who aren't playing the game properly and should get good instead of relying on wiki training wheels
Regarding the previous post, as I said, it's completely arbitrary what From fans have decided is acceptable and still getting the full experience. To me, it's like cheating whatever way you try and justify or underplay it. You can, and I know this for an absolute fact, complete Dark Souls 1-3, Bloodborne and Sekiro without any guides, walkthroughs, summons, tips or help of any kind. If you choose to look at strategies, you are making it easier for yourself because it's too much for you to do it on your own but you still want to play it. You just are
So why can't people also want an easy mode to do the same thing?
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 21:29:00 GMT
To try and clarify my point, the vast majority of From fans already use various means and aids to make the games easier for them and are completely content with that. The one thing they can't abide is the one that involves the dreaded word 'Easy'. To me, it comes across as taking umbrage that some people might get to play and enjoy the games without all the stuggling, stress, time, bood, sweat and tears it has taken to EARN the right to have beaten them and that will undermine their 'achievement'. If you feel that strongly about it, stop using guides and wikis and asking for help. Do it on your own. Earn it
Or don't, because it doesn't matter. It's just a silly video game
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 22:02:57 GMT
Apologies if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you've got a pretty bad idea of FromSoft fans for no reason Aunt AlisonYes, a good majority of them (myself included) do look things up often. How not to fuck up a sidequest, a weakness a boss might have, a good weapon/spell/whatever... However, the elitist "gitgudders", in my experience, are not much more than a minority. A very vocal one, sure, but a minority nonetheless. I don't know what your experience on the subject has been, but I really don't think that the big part of the fanbase that uses guides and such vomits at the idea of an easy mode just because it's labelled as such. Most of the time the opinions I've seen (assuming an easy mode is talked about, it doesn't usually come up) are along the lines of "Well you can do X Y or Z to make it easier but if you want a straight-up easy mode sure, whatever, they can add it". Again, gitgudders and gatekeepers exist in pretty much every fandom (not limited to games, either). Please don't let what's (usually) a vocal minority colour your opinion of the whole. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 22:18:55 GMT
So we're all in agreement they should add an easy mode then!
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Nanocrystal
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Post by Nanocrystal on Sept 15, 2023 22:33:29 GMT
Wow this discussion sure went round in circles. I haven't seen a decent arguement for not having a difficulty option yet, do you have one? Because it might result in a sub-par or even boring experience (see my prediction of what Sen's Fortress would be like on easy), and the developer would rather people not have that experience. How is that not a valid reason? I really don't understand why some of you can't get your heads around this. I can understand it more from a developer point of view, but from a gamers point of view it's just weird. Why the heck is the same argument understandable coming from Miyazaki, but "weird" when I make it? |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 22:43:46 GMT
How are you able to predict how something will be experienced by someone with different expectations of the game? And why do you care if their experience is boring? If it's the difference between someone playing or not playing the game, you think it's better they don't so that... it preserves the experience they'll never have?
What about people who've beaten Sen's loads and no longer struggle with it? What's the point of NG+?
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Post by Samildanach on Sept 15, 2023 22:44:49 GMT
Do any of FromSoftware's game have an easy mode? Having recently played their very first three games (King's Field I-III) there was no easy mode there and they would definitely put people off by the obtuse initial difficulty but reward those who persevere. Not played Armored Core, but I don't think that series has difficulty settings either.
I'd rather FromSoftware's devs continue to focus on what they are really good at - atmosphere, world building, challenging but fun gameplay etc. than spend valuable development time trying to balance their games for all skill levels (or shorter attention spans if I am being unkind?).
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Youthist
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Post by Youthist on Sept 15, 2023 22:44:57 GMT
So did you have a good reason why they shouldn't be added, if you posted one before I missed it as I have been at work most the day and havent followed the thread in its entirety. The reason is the development house doesn’t appear to want to and they want to make the game they make, which they are entitled to do. I don’t believe this is about should or shouldn’t, as far as I can tell. And they seem to be doing just fine. If folks don’t want to play those games due to reasons, then don’t buy them. There are plenty of very popular game styles that I don’t like so I don’t buy. |
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Post by starchildhypocrethes on Sept 15, 2023 22:59:09 GMT
I see we’re still struggling to explain why offering difficulty options is a bad idea.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:05:18 GMT
The Kings Field games are shit to be fair, so no one cares how difficult they are
And the point is people do want to play the games. If no one discussing this has ever complained about a game not having a feature, cool. Otherwise it's just people being precious about From
People are complaining about Starfield not having proper space travel. It's their game, their vision. If you don't like it, don't play it. Yet they're playing it anyway, and complaining on and on because it's not the experience they want. There are other games. Play No Man's Sky
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 23:06:44 GMT
So we're all in agreement they should add an easy mode then! More like "if they add an easy mode I won't mind" rather than "they should" on my part, tbh. I'm not going to tell them how to fix what ain't broke, so to speak, I'm just going to keep going about my day if they do. Life is too short to waste on bitching about a difficulty setting of all things (he says, this being his... what number post on the subject, again? ) |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:12:09 GMT
So we're all in agreement they should add an easy mode then! More like "if they add an easy mode I won't mind" rather than "they should" on my part, tbh. I'm not going to tell them how to fix what ain't broke, so to speak, I'm just going to keep going about my day if they do. Life is too short to waste on bitching about a difficulty setting of all things (he says, this being his... what number post on the subject, again? ) I think we can solve world peace next |
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Post by bichii2 on Sept 15, 2023 23:25:10 GMT
Offer a secret easy mode. It only actives based on A.i. learning how shit you are and if it decides after 30 genuine attempts on a boss you aren't good enough it secretly debuffs the boss then goes back to normal difficulty after the boss.
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Post by JuniorFE on Sept 15, 2023 23:32:46 GMT
People are complaining about Starfield not having proper space travel. It's their game, their vision. If you don't like it, don't play it. Yet they're playing it anyway, and complaining on and on because it's not the experience they want. There are other games. Play No Man's Sky The thing is, I could just as easily convert this into "People are complaining about Elden Ring not having an easy mode. It's their game, their vision... ...There are other games, play, I dunno, the new Assassin's Creeds" and so on, and all of a sudden you're arguing against an easy mode. If people bought and played Starfield expecting seamless space travel (note: not "bought it despite the lack of space travel but reserved the right to think it should be there") when in fact it's on record (the quote is from an interview on IGN but it's probably been stated elsewhere too) that that was not on the cards: that's kind of on them, and I'd be saying the same thing to someone that bought a Souls game expecting an easy mode to be there despite all evidence to the contrary and then still played it while complaining. Or to someone that bought, say, a shooter expecting auto-aim to be a thing and bitching about the lack of it. It's one thing to ask about the possibility of an easy mode (or to buy a game while knowing something doesn't exist, but still thinking it would be nicer if it did), another thing entirely to buy the game expecting something that's not there. The former I agree with, the latter (and especially the complaining that sometimes follows it), not so much. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:35:35 GMT
/s  |
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Nanocrystal
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Post by Nanocrystal on Sept 15, 2023 23:38:47 GMT
While we're at this, let's put map markers in The Outer Wilds, a hint system in The Witness, and a view end credits option in Nier Automata's main menu.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:39:28 GMT
Anyway, if people don't ask for it, From will never implement it. So it seems fine for people to ask for it
This discussion started because someone took it as an affront that an easy mode would ever be included. Not that they don't care if it's included, that it would ruin the whole game
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:40:43 GMT
Under a Killing Moon included a hints system. It was amazing. You never had to use it but if you got stuck on a puzzle, you could get a clue about the next step (and only that). They put effort into it
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Sept 15, 2023 23:41:52 GMT
I see we’re still struggling to explain why offering difficulty options is a bad idea. No one is arguing that it's a bad idea, just an unnecessary one.
These games carry their challenge as their badge of honour, their unique selling point. Demon and Dark Souls were pretty standard fantasy affairs storywise, in a standard fantasy setting (castles, swamps, forests), against standard fantasy enemies (ghouls, skeletons, knights, dragons and demigods). Bloodborne added the Cosmic Horror element (not deeply original), while Sekiro the Eastern setting and the purest combat. What let them all stand out was their obscurity and their difficulty / challenge and that's how they found an audience (people wanting to face the challenge and overcome it with the available tools), became popular and eventually commercial successes (see Elden Ring) to the point they introduced a whole new genre with similar specifications / settings.
Remove the USP and what are you left with? A game like every other game; it could welcome a new audience, but it could also alienate the existing one - why risk it? |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:42:10 GMT
While we're at this, let's put map markers in The Outer Wilds, a hint system in The Witness, and a view end credits option in Nier Automata's main menu. Nier Automata has an easy mode. What |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Sept 15, 2023 23:44:14 GMT
I see we’re still struggling to explain why offering difficulty options is a bad idea. No one is arguing that it's a bad idea, just an unnecessary one.
These games carry their challenge as their badge of honour, their unique selling point. Demon and Dark Souls were pretty standard fantasy affairs storywise, in a standard fantasy setting (castles, swamps, forests), against standard fantasy enemies (ghouls, skeletons, knights, dragons and demigods). Bloodborne added the Cosmic Horror element (not deeply original), while Sekiro the Eastern setting and the purest combat. What let them all stand out was their obscurity and their difficulty / challenge and that's how they found an audience (people wanting to face the challenge and overcome it with the available tools), became popular and eventually commercial successes (see Elden Ring) to the point they introduced a whole new genre with similar specifications / settings.
Remove the USP and what are you left with? A game like every other game; it could welcome a new audience, but it could also alienate the existing one - why risk it? They're totally arguing that it shouldn't exist. You don't argue this long over something you don't care about
The badge of honour part says it all. An easy mode would take that away from people who play it on Normal. I really think that's all it is
I don't think the difficulty is the only selling point for From's games either. There are hours long lore videos online. People discussing different builds, etc. None of that is tied to the difficulty
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Sept 15, 2023 23:48:29 GMT
While we're at this, let's put map markers in The Outer Wilds, a hint system in The Witness, and a view end credits option in Nier Automata's main menu. Not to mention one-button Hadouken to Street Fighter  |
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