Blue_Mike
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Post by Blue_Mike on Sept 13, 2024 23:00:27 GMT
Thought there should be a general thread for the fact that the whole games industry seems to be collapsing in layoffs, terrible decisions and assorted other bollocks, especially after the whole of Annapurna Interactive's staff walking out yesterday.
Evening Star:
Lost Boys Interactive:
I knew last year was an absolute bloodbath for game devs, but I didn't realise the blood was sixteen thousand people deep:
In other, non layoff related news:
Unity are walking back that runtime installation fee bullshit, but they are also raising prices, so... rusty swings and shit-encrusted roundabouts.
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Post by simple on Sept 13, 2024 23:58:43 GMT
For an industry that’s never been more profitable its remarkable how badly the games industry is run
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Post by baihu1983 on Sept 14, 2024 5:41:04 GMT
Almost like budgets have gotten out of control for every big studio that's not Nintendo.
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Sept 14, 2024 9:59:21 GMT
The game industry sees the consumer as morons and magic money tree, also the industry sees themself as "too big to fall" at one point. Budgets bloated to insane levels where they have to sell large amount of copies and ubisoft, EA and 2k fill their games with MTX because GTA5 made some thing like $5 billion from gta online.
Sony and MS buy all these studios and major publishers and both companies have fucked up and laid off a lot of staff, while the top level execs keep their jobs, looking at you Lies of Phil (spencer)
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crashV👀d👀
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Post by crashV👀d👀 on Sept 14, 2024 11:23:31 GMT
To be fair to MS (yeah I know), if I was as big as them and had all these existing departments for HR/marketing/support and just "hungry hippo'd" a bunch of studios i'd absolutely cut all those functions as use my existing ones. The devs and studios though, maybe not.
With gaming being a larger revenue earner than streaming/ tv and movies combined it was always going to bring the leechy investors to earn the dollar. We're our own worst enemy though as too many fall for the DLC/MTX bullshit which just bolsters all the grifters that rock up to fleece us further. If we all voted with our wallets against this shit in unison it would absolutely curtail it and the funding would go back into devs/games instead of cash shops and social engineering and manipulation.
Also tangent, I found out this week that 2 spaces after a full-stop is no longer the thing yet I can't stop doing it.
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Chopsen
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 14, 2024 11:36:22 GMT
Almost like budgets have gotten out of control for every big studio that's not Nintendo. This is the thing. If you look at the film industry, you'd have a very small number of "tentpole" releases staggered throughout the year, from a very small number of major players who are cautious to not step on each others toes. You have a bunch of other smaller releases, sometimes from smaller studios, but they have budgets to match. There are carefully managed release schedules on different channels. If you look at the music industry you again have a very small number of big players, who have a very small number of *insanely* profitable acts. They marketed in an industry where exposure and marketing is precisely controlled (less so with streaming) to make sure they maximise their income for the whales. A huge number of smaller acts exist but it's accepted that the majority of the will not break even and the whales subsidised that, the overall system is viable. In the games industry, you've got a number of developers all simultaneously trying to be the majority players with massive tentpole releases, all jostling for position in a crowded release schedule even for releases from the same publisher. There is no room for error as everything costs millions and has to be a massive hit to just break even. That's before you get the the idea that 40 to 70 quid apparently buys you 40+ hours of entertainment. People just don't have *time* let alone the money to make that expectation work. It's a fucking stupid industry. There's loads of money to make, but there only so many ways you can divide that up
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zagibu
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Post by zagibu on Sept 14, 2024 12:07:11 GMT
Also tangent, I found out this week that 2 spaces after a full-stop is no longer the thing yet I can't stop doing it. Damn, son, you have a problem.
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Tuffty
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Post by Tuffty on Sept 14, 2024 12:43:31 GMT
I'm sure there's executives right now absolutely cursing the fact that the lockdown didn't last longer. All these massive dev teams and investment in the hope that people would remain in their homes for longer looking for means of entertainment. So when sales and profits do go down, expectedly, they can no longer justify it.
But of course, the CEO's will get their bonuses in spite of the rampant failure.
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pizzacrunch
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Post by pizzacrunch on Sept 14, 2024 12:54:17 GMT
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Sept 14, 2024 14:02:19 GMT
I'm sure there's executives right now absolutely cursing the fact that the lockdown didn't last longer. All these massive dev teams and investment in the hope that people would remain in their homes for longer looking for means of entertainment. So when sales and profits do go down, expectedly, they can no longer justify it. But of course, the CEO's will get their bonuses in spite of the rampant failure. Its disgusting how these CEO at the big publishers make massive profits for zero skill and then have the nerve to say games should cost more or some shill gaming website says "games should cost more as developers are going out of business"
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Post by Bill in the rain on Sept 14, 2024 15:07:00 GMT
I also feel like there are just a ridiculous number of games these days. The rise of middleware, asset stores and digital distribution means almost anyone can make a game, and you have dozens of professional looking games coming out per day (plus many more unprofessional looking ones). Plus that's competing with the huge back-catalogues that are digitally available as well. Plus the big GaaS time-sink games like Fortnite and Fifa, etc.. I'm amazed half these games get enough money to break even. With that said, the games industry has always had a bit of a system where people leave or are let go at the end of each project, and then new people are hired as they staff up for the next project. So possibly the 16,000 isn't quite as bad as it sounds. The Annapurna thing is nuts, and I'm amazed the entire staff were brave enough to quit in the current market. It's a shame, as I usually really like Annapurna's games. ===== I was gonna post this a few days back, but couldn't find a good thread, so I'll stick it here: medium.com/@monicah428/the-early-days-of-valve-from-a-woman-inside-bf80c6b47961(long read, but interesting)
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Blue_Mike
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Post by Blue_Mike on Sept 14, 2024 16:16:04 GMT
Ugh, I'm sure this won't lead to studios assuming they can just fire more devs and rely on AI:
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Post by baihu1983 on Sept 14, 2024 17:12:31 GMT
If you haven't played PBB I recommend it.
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Post by Vandelay on Sept 15, 2024 8:13:13 GMT
That madness of these ballooning team sizes and massive budgets is that the big success stories of the industry in the last few years seems to always be the games made by a solo or a small team of devs that technically could have been made on hardware from 20 years ago. Plus, with the easy access to Unreal Engine, amateurs can make something close to what AAA studios are pumping out in the visuals department too, with the only real distinction coming from animations that are done with actors and motion tracking.
Besides that, you seem to have the big players all being run by people who only seem to be able to chase trends, not caring about splashing the cash in the hope that just one of their investments goes big. Inevitably, the creatives are the ones given the boot when a game fails, rather than those that insisted on making another battle royale or MOBA or hero shooter, doomed the fail from the beginning.
Then you have the medium sized companies that all were created by kids (always male kids) straight out of college in the 90s and 00s. It was friends making games together, but they have continued to act like frat boys even after they started hiring from a wide range of people. Chuck a bit of narcissism in there too and you have a recipe for abusive behaviour and atrocious work practices.
Then you have the staff that are mostly going to be people who absolutely love games and have probably dreamed about making games since being young. They are willing to take a lot of shit in order to fulfill that dream. They likely to have little experience with other industries and mostly don't know any different. Again, just like other industries that people are desperate to work in (like film, fashion, music, etc) it will always lead to the money people abusing that passion and treating the workforce as completely disposable. In doesn't matter if you burn them out by the time they are in their 40s, as there will always be another crop of willing slaves to come along next.
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Sept 15, 2024 11:06:58 GMT
Ubisoft has like 4 or 5 studios working on a game to make this giant map filled with copy and paste missions or tasks and I don't think we need this. to have 4 or 5 studios must bloat the budget and games like AC valhalla is massive game but it does not have enough content for the 70/80+ hour game length. recent ghost recons are another example. Just cause has massive maps but not much of interest to fully fill in the map
its ok for a game to be 20 or 30 hours, some reddit brain gamer may love 70 to 100 hour publisher quote but lots of games don't need it to be this. Focus on the strengths of a game, (its like a nice meal, rather have 2 or 3 courses rather than all you can eat buffet slop of mystery meat)
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Post by dangerousdave on Sept 15, 2024 11:18:08 GMT
Games can reach those kinds of numbers on replayability(?) alone if the game is good enough. Metroid Dread is roughly a 10 hour experience first time around and yet I’ve clocked 60+ hours simply because it’s a delight to play. It’s tight and well crafted and maintains a consistent quality throughout.
I think it’s harder for narrative-heavy games to have such appealing relatability, but they became hugely popular during the HD era and the only real way to extend that play time is to bloat them.
I’d still love a bite-sized Assassin’s Creed experience that takes place in a small town. Any one of those smaller locations in the second game could have been a £20 download and able to host a nice 15-20 hour experience without feeing old.
Would have cost a fraction of the time to make and could have focused on a smaller cast, perhaps with some deeper narrative.
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Post by simple on Sept 15, 2024 12:10:47 GMT
The Mass Effect trilogy is three 25-30hr games and I think they’re proof that being relatively clutter free and having a compelling narrative can make for a replayable game that fans will keep coming back to.
ME Andromeda was a single 90hr game that as much as I enjoyed I’m not likely to replay anytime soon as it was filled with busywork and map spam which padded it out enormously.
I’m not sure what the economic reasoning behind it is. I remember FF7 being the first game marketed based on its length but that was an era when we all bought a handful of games per year. Now you’d think having players buy more better games would be better than playing one mediocre game forever (apart from microtransaction marketplaces disguised as games). I’d certainly buy more at launch if I thought they’d be worth my time/money.
Like Star Wars Outlaws looks like a decent 7/10 wait for a sale title, same for the current God of War series and its always been true of Assassins Creed. Why invest £$200m in producing a game no one will pay full price for.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 15, 2024 12:21:31 GMT
I'd say you're doing a disservice lumping the current God of War series with the Ubisoft bloat stuff.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Sept 21, 2024 17:10:26 GMT
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Sept 21, 2024 17:54:55 GMT
I mean the industry can't really sustain this many AAA titles with their millions in production costs, it can sustain a handful of them and a bunch more AA and As basically. But the only way for that to happen is some of the big guys aiming for AAA to implode.
Plus there's been a general trend in tech. Alphabet alone fired 35K people in January, 16K since 2023 is kinda tiny relative to some of the other things going on in tech more generally. Meta/MS/Google/Apple have all laid off massive amounts. Because like the big Video Game players they all over invested during Covid thinking those times would continue forever. They have not and the market is correcting itself.
Also 60-70 quid for a game is a total bargain for entertainment. Does nobody else go out anymore? I regularly get charged £7 for a pint or £20 for a cinema ticket. If the game last longer than a couple evening's out it's basically breaking even.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Sept 21, 2024 18:21:00 GMT
20 quid for a cinema ticket?!
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Sept 21, 2024 18:35:29 GMT
£7 for a pint or £20 for a cinema ticket?
maybe london prices but not here or most other cities
I think game design need to evolve as its lot of the same old game design tropes rehashed and they change you £60 to £70 for some fancy graphics. (also the trend now is to release recent game that works on current consoles as its easy money) I liked Until dawn on ps4 but don't want to pay RRP for this graphical update. I can't think of a new game thats worth £60
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Chopsen
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 21, 2024 18:46:16 GMT
I can't think of a new game thats worth £60
If it's a game I'm vaguely playing for more than a few hours of an evening more than once: that's reasonable. If it's anything beyond 20 hours it keeps me entertained, it's a bargain. The only thing that does better is a fat novel of a few hundred pages.
It's a reductive way of looking at it, but in terms of £/hr to keep me entertained, it's amazing value. A night out costs me upwards of £100. If it's a gig or show and not just me and the wife gossiping as entertainment double it at least. A 4k blu-ray cost 20 quid.
I've got games I've spend *hundreds* of hours on. For £60? Take my money!
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zephro
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Post by zephro on Sept 21, 2024 18:46:59 GMT
Yes it's London. Though not the fullness of it as it's easily hitting 8 quid a pint in Soho these days if you're not careful. Then again it was definitely 6 quid last time I was out in Manchester. So still a couple nights out for 1 game.
The cinema tickets are worse because all the local Odeon's have been converted into Lux so they only have stupid deluxe seats.
But yeah I'm playing Satisfactory which is hundreds of hours, Crusader Kings 3, Civ or Baldurs Gate 3. 60 quid is a fucking bargain.
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Sept 21, 2024 22:10:44 GMT
Somewhat overlooking all the DLC, MTX, special editions, battle passes, etc on top of that £70 initial entry fee. None of the big publishers are losing money, far from it. Not sure why anyone on the user end would defend the price increase
Most games recycle a tonne of stuff and use repetition to extend that time- they also add grind to slow down your progress (and offer MTX to speed it back up). Is Assassin's Creed worth more than Resident Evil because of the length? Would you pay £70 for Vampire Survivors?
£/hs makes no sense as a way to gauge the value of a game, unless your only interest in video games is as a means to kill some time. Also ignores the state games are released in- a premium price for something that's buggy and unfinished is not what I'd consider good value at all, regardless of how many hours of entertainment you eventually get out of it
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Sept 22, 2024 7:03:07 GMT
AC odyssey was big game and took 60 hours plus to complete but I don't think it was value for money, as it had lot of crap missions as Ubi like quantity over quality.
Also you had to do side quests as the devs level gated main missions. But of course they had XP boosters they could sell you. This other forum I was posting on at the time had small gaming sub forum and some fanboy idiot get angry with me about the grind also said "he put 100 hours into the game and didn't need to grind at all!" I could of pointed out he put 100 hour into the game of had already done the grinding but it was thread full of AC fanboys (even got a death threat from one of the AC chuds on there!) AC valhalla was even bigger game and even worse in quality in terms of gameplay missions. I think there is few few games where long play time equal quality, BG3 is one of them (although I have not played it) P5R was great game but the extra royal content got a bit tiring around the end
Good point about all these premium and so called ultimate editions on digital stores, they are £90 to even £120 plus now and its a sad joke. The best bit is, they sell 3 to 5 day early access and often the game is broken mess or extra buggy. Some gamers lap this crap up
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Chopsen
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 22, 2024 8:13:01 GMT
£/hs makes no sense as a way to gauge the value of a game, unless your only interest in video games is as a means to kill some time. That is absolutely literally what it is! What the hell are you gaming for if not this? It is a way of passing time, like all hobbies and interests.
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Post by simple on Sept 22, 2024 8:36:36 GMT
Somewhat overlooking all the DLC, MTX, special editions, battle passes, etc on top of that £70 initial entry fee. None of the big publishers are losing money, far from it. Not sure why anyone on the user end would defend the price increase It really doesn’t get said enough that most of these companies being “forced” into closing studios and making savings by firing staff have never been making more money than they are right now.
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apollo
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Post by apollo on Sept 22, 2024 8:50:52 GMT
EA and 2k make so much money from MTX and they act like they barely scraping by "and need to axe jobs". The high up at these companies are fucking parasites, the andy wilsons and the rest of the usual suspects make millions while the devs are lucky to keep their jobs for the next project
As for gaming to kill time, I don't play games just to kill time (some do on reddit or other sites as they have to play all the games on gamepass or have to play a game leaving gamepass, like an addict) I play games to have fun experience. During August I didn't have anything I wanted to play could of played something like AC :V but fuck that timesink of ubislop
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Chopsen
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Post by Chopsen on Sept 22, 2024 8:53:43 GMT
Well sure, I'm not spending money to kill time doing something not fun. I would always chose a fun activity to kill time. It's a weird distinction to make tbh.
If I wanted to just pass time and not have fun I could just sit there and time will pass all by itself.
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