LFace
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Post by LFace on Aug 18, 2024 8:15:16 GMT
Been hammering away at the DLC since it came out in-between moving house and yesterday I managed to kill both the horse fellas (putrid and Gaius) after getting stuck on them for a while and moving on to somewhere new. I think I've only 3 bosses left now, stuck on Bayle who as of yet I've barely scratched so need to figure out the patterns, and keeping relatively spoiled free the one you get to under a chair.
Still bloody loving this game having pumped 250+ hours into it over 2 main characters. I'll be sad when I've killed all bosses.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Aug 18, 2024 10:52:32 GMT
In Elden Ring specifically? That's more for the "Drink Physick, Howl [of Shabriri], change talismans, Seppuku, Flame [Grant Me Strength], drink blue, [Golden] Vow, [Royal Knight's] Resolve..." *enters, two-shots boss* types. You know, like here! That’s it exactly plus a switch weapon/seal/stance in between each one. For a ‘right. This time is the one’ run it can be upwards of a dozen individual actions which doesn’t sound like much but it all adds up to just be a pain in the arse. If I played in PC I would have absolutely learned how to bind all of that shite into a macro by now.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Aug 18, 2024 11:14:39 GMT
Oh wow. Have I been playing it all wrong?
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Post by JuniorFE on Aug 18, 2024 11:20:30 GMT
Oh wow. Have I been playing it all wrong? The closest I came to using a buff in my first playthrough (besides Lord's Divine Fortification on the final boss) was Terra Magica and the Cerulean Hidden Tear with Comet Azur the one time just to see how it worked, so... *shrug* FFS I didn't even use Great Runes Now in the Niohs, on the other hand...
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loto
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Post by loto on Aug 18, 2024 11:38:43 GMT
I like a buff too. Face the Fog, chug the Physick (stamina regen and increase damage from subsequent attacks) cast Golden Vow, Flame Grant me Strength, maybe blood flame blade then scoff a crab meat and go in there.
Yes, it’s a faff sometimes, but when you wipe the floor with a boss that was dog-yachting on your buff less character, then it’s really satisfying. It’s the chess side of the RPG I like
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 11:39:15 GMT
I wasn't convinced in the base game that the boss rubbishness came from a "difficulty above all else" mindset, I felt like they'd probably just made so much game they didn't have the time to give it the balance love they did in other games. The DLC, not so much
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 18, 2024 13:18:26 GMT
Aunty TreatsFor the record, in my post about choice of play style I was primarily talking about OP play styles and taking a stance against a certain subset of the player base who tries to invalidate that and calls for nerfing anything that's broken. I don't like to play OP either, but apparently a great lot do, as evidenced by how seemingly most ER videos on YT are about the most OP build ever. And ultimately, I think everyone who wants to play that way should be able to. Anyway, for what it's worth, while I'm not sure if and how well a difficulty setting of sorts would work, I agree that the argument that it would be against what the game is about doesn't hold any water anymore. I can definitely see it in Dark Souls 1, but it just makes no sense in a game where Mimic Tear exists.
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Post by JuniorFE on Aug 18, 2024 13:19:19 GMT
I like a buff too. Face the Fog, chug the Physick (stamina regen and increase damage from subsequent attacks) cast Golden Vow, Flame Grant me Strength, maybe blood flame blade then scoff a crab meat and go in there. Yes, it’s a faff sometimes, but when you wipe the floor with a boss that was dog-yachting on your buff less character, then it’s really satisfying. It’s the chess side of the RPG I like Godrick last night took two bonks to phase transition, a third to stagger and a fourth to finish, and if I'd actually played well it could've been hitless too (second phase was)! For a +10 out of 25 Heavy Giant-Crusher with barely enough Str to two-hand it, an unoptimized buff sequence and no supporting talismans, I'm calling it a win
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 18, 2024 13:23:52 GMT
Elden Beast was surprisingly a walkover with Torrent. It seems the AI doesn't know what to do with it. Keep in mind that Elden Beast was considerably stronger on release and was nerfed in a patch. I believe that was because the original version was made with Torrent in mind and the patch had to adjust it to make it more feasible in an on-foot only fight. Now it's the other way round, suddenly we're using Torrent in a fight that's not balanced with him in mind.
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Vandelay
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Post by Vandelay on Aug 18, 2024 13:30:41 GMT
Personally, I like that you can tailor the difficulty yourself through gear and items you use. I would prefer they do that over just a flat easy, normal and hard options. For the most part, Elden Ring is the most successful implementation of that, as there are so many different options available to you. In theory, you could complete the game with any build, but some are going to be a lot harder than others. Plus, there are plenty of opportunities to go and level up to out level the challenge if you are struggling, but they also do a good job of a completionist being able to avoid becoming ridiculously OP if it they don't want that.
However, it isn't perfect. Mimic tear is definitely not balanced throughout the game, whilst boss fights are often balanced around having a summon far more than previous games expecting you to have a co-op. The DLC also occasionally feels like it is forcing you down particularly builds with its bosses (and the final boss is only where it really is a big issue).
Saying the mimic tear trivialises some fights doesn't mean that what they were going for is a bad way to handle difficulty though. It isn't any different from saying that x game's normal is too hard, but easy is too easy.
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 18, 2024 14:21:11 GMT
I agree about the gear thing, hence my conviction that it's great that there are OP weapons etc. It's so great how many options there are to suit your preferred playstyle in great detail. E.g. if you want something OP and don't want to learn boss movesets, Blasphemous Blade is your friend. If you want something OP that still requires you to understand their movesets, Star Fist is great. And so on.
I'm not sure though that any boss fight outside duo/gank fights is actually designed around summons though. I think Malenia is clearly designed for a 1-on-1 melee battle, she just happens to have the most bullshit attack in the game. Fromsoft is under great pressure from a substantial part of the existing player base to create ever more challenging and more complex bosses, in many cases I think they did pretty well, but sometimes when they're trying to push it they miss the mark.
And I'm not sure the mimic issue is no different to "normal is too hard, easy is too easy". Using any summons completely changes the fight because the AI has no idea how to deal with more than one enemy other than switching back and forth between them. I switched from using summons to playing solo mostly not because it was too easy but because it broke the AI.
Not that this is actually new, previous games had summons too and the AI didn't know what to do about that either. When I decided to get help against Sister Friede and summoned an NPC, that completely broke the fight as I could just backstab her over and over again. Use of summons is of course more common and more encouraged in ER, just saying it's not exclusive to this game.
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Aunty Treats
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Post by Aunty Treats on Aug 18, 2024 14:39:58 GMT
It's funny you mentioned the co op thing. I was thinking about that earlier- it terms of summons being a way to handle difficulty, it does fail in that as soon as you introduce a summon you're fundamentally changing the gameplay. With my other character, I was using the summons a bit for dungeon bosses and the two issues were that the fights became a lot more chaotic and I just didn't care about them. It's not fun for me and I just stopped playing. You have people saying it's great because you can play the game however you like, then you get snarky comments because you want to play without summons, as if you're just being awkward
The need for the games to maintain their reputation as being difficult is leading to a widening divide in difficulty due to upping the ante for the hardcore audience while satisfying their growing mainstream appeal (in my opinion). Great if you're in either of those camps, but not if you just want a challenging solo playthrough, like their earlier games
I'm not fussed how other people play or if they use the mimic. I don't really understand defending the game being too difficult for you- like, I wish Mario was harder so I had to use the white tanooki suit or Doom Eternal was so difficult I had to turn autoaim on and use the Sentinel Suit. Why wouldn't you rather the game was better balanced so you could just fight the bosses normally? It does come across as people being in love with the idea of the game being difficult rather than the reality of it for them (where it isn't, because they use things to remove that challenge anyway)
I would understand the push back if I just came in and said I couldn't beat the first boss, the game is shit and they should add an easy mode. I've paid my dues, played through the fucker solo and really liked it on the whole. But there has been too much frustration, way more than any earlier games and if people still insist on accepting any nonsense they put in for the sake of the game being well hard, it will only get worse. Look at the DLC
Maybe it's time to start sending the message that it's hard enough. Also find it a bit weird to say the game's creator using mimics and everything is a positive- he's signing off on everything and playing in baby mode. No wonder the balance is fucked. If another dev came out saying they played on easy or whatever, I don't think it would get taken quite so well. Man can do no wrong, even if he contradicts himself on the difficulty aspect. Cult of personality innit (see also DS2 not being proper)
As for what I want, just for the subject of the game's difficulty to not be such a controversial subject. To be able to point out its flaws. It's also fun to think about ways they could address it. People always just go straight to 'easy mode' but I've never said they should just lower boss health or raise damage. Personally I think it's an interesting design discussion and their games offer massive scope for playing with the difficulty in various ways
Also, as for leveling, my stats are not the issue. I'm happy with my damage output and health against Malenia, as with all the other bosses, they just have one or two aspects that are silly difficult. I could overlevel to beat her, but then I'm overlevel for the rest of the game, for the sake of a single boss attack. From what I was told, this is peak difficulty. If respeccing gave you back your runes instead of levels, so you didn't have to spend them all, that would be a cool (I think Lies of P does it that way)
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 14:50:48 GMT
I don't really agree. For me it's a question of fun and accessibility of different experiences. The brilliance of earlier Souls titles is that most of the experiences it can offer are accessible to most players. Most players can do pure melee, most players can do pure magic, most players can do hybrid, etc etc. ER's problem is that as the game progresses it starts to take away access to playing that way from more and more people. As Souls gets harder, people in any given playstyle rarely feel like it just can't be done the way they're playing the game. I think it is the case for Elden Ring. Offering the player ways to reduce the challenge through gear and equipment is great, and that's what Souls offers. You can track down that one weapon, you can get that crazy bit of armour, etc etc. It never really says to you: "sorry, but you're not good enough at the game to have this experience any more". Elden Ring kind of does that with some of its content, and then says "but here's a totally different, less satisfying experience you can have instead". Elden Ring eventually reaches a point where for many players, those options aren't enough to help them tune the difficulty any more. And instead it becomes a choice of hitting a brick wall, or doing something that trivialises it. And it's not satisfying either way. I actually think it's neat that the game effectively offers a way for players to say "you know what, fuck this shit. I've had enough, lets move on". It's applaudable. But it does reach a point for a lot of people where it feels like that's basically the *only* option, and that's where it loses points for me.
It's the juxtaposition at the heart of the game - there's a million options, but the way a decent chunk of the game is designed paradoxically makes the game feel like it eventually has far fewer options than any other Souls game.
And I say all the above as someone who generally loves difficult games, will happily argue that the games being difficult is a key part of their atmosphere and wrote an entire doctoral thesis on why frustration in video games is good, actually.
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loto
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Post by loto on Aug 18, 2024 15:35:05 GMT
My daughter was asking for a way to regenerate bosses that she’d already beaten without going into NG+ etc
I knew she wasn’t mine…
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Post by Jambowayoh on Aug 18, 2024 15:42:08 GMT
My daughter was asking for a way to regenerate bosses that she’d already beaten without going into NG+ etc I knew she wasn’t mine… That actually would be cool. A boss rush option.
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Post by JuniorFE on Aug 18, 2024 15:47:02 GMT
My daughter was asking for a way to regenerate bosses that she’d already beaten without going into NG+ etc I knew she wasn’t mine… That actually would be cool. A boss rush option. If easy respeccing was what Wo Long and the Niohs have over the Soulslikes, on-demand boss rematches are what Sekiro has. (technically DS2 did it, but while still putting them and their areas in a localized NG+, so not quite the same) (and yes I would greatly appreciate such a feature as well. Probably a good thing I'm not loto's progeny )
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 15:56:39 GMT
I wish the games had an NG+ option that *didn't* rebalance stuff. Like, just restart you with all the gear, spells etc you found, but back to your initial level so you can do a fresh playthrough with whatever weapon you like. The NG+ scaling never really worked for me, because tend to just delete the first 2/3s of the game.
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Aug 18, 2024 16:38:54 GMT
That actually would be cool. A boss rush option. If easy respeccing was what Wo Long and the Niohs have over the Soulslikes, on-demand boss rematches are what Sekiro has. (technically DS2 did it, but while still putting them and their areas in a localized NG+, so not quite the same) (and yes I would greatly appreciate such a feature as well. Probably a good thing I'm not loto 's progeny ) Well, just as good that you are mine progeny, as I've wished for such a feature some pages ago
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loto
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Post by loto on Aug 18, 2024 16:50:09 GMT
JonFE - lol. I’d take it as long as there was a double confirmation option,: ‘Are you really, really sure you want to bring Malenia, the Blade of Miquella back, as it took you two months to kill her last time?’ sort of thing
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Aug 18, 2024 16:50:47 GMT
I agree about the gear thing, hence my conviction that it's great that there are OP weapons etc. It's so great how many options there are to suit your preferred playstyle in great detail. E.g. if you want something OP and don't want to learn boss movesets, Blasphemous Blade is your friend. If you want something OP that still requires you to understand their movesets, Star Fist is great. Which is fine but the problem with that is this: Imagine playing Elden Ring if YouTube or the fextralife wiki didn’t exist. Sure, you could work this stuff out eventually but, fucking hell, it would take some time. But, yes, that’s not really exclusive to builds. Is the most maddeningly opaque game ever made. I was still finding out fairly basic stuff into the DLC (I never realised two handing raised your strength stat until just after I beat moon knight).
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Post by Duffking on Aug 18, 2024 16:52:09 GMT
In fairness I think most of the games are built with the intention of wikis etc existing and being used, hence the messaging systems and all that. If you didn't have those options they'd probably have designed the games diferently.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Aug 18, 2024 16:54:38 GMT
That’s very charitable. The message system just seems designed to warn about hidden enemies and fuck with people trying to climb ladders
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JonFE
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Post by JonFE on Aug 18, 2024 17:24:13 GMT
JonFE - lol. I’d take it as long as there was a double confirmation option,: ‘Are you really, really sure you want to bring Malenia, the Blade of Miquella back, as it took you two months to kill her last time?’ sort of thing The way I'd do it is add the option to replay/revive the boss at its bonfire (the one that usually appears once you've beat him/her) and if you fail you return to this bonfire with the boss still dead. No need to get experience or anything really from this fight, just the chance to check new strategies, new builds, new weapons etc.
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Post by RadicalRex on Aug 18, 2024 17:39:09 GMT
I agree that the game is way too opaque for its own good a lot of the time.
One of the most egregious examples is Baldachin's Blessing which you get from being held by Fia, which you must consume because as long as it's in your inventory your max HP is reduced by 5%. The game does not tell you this. This is bullshit, plain and simple.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Aug 18, 2024 17:58:07 GMT
The thing is, I sound harsh on it because I love it so much which I think is why it annoys me when I don’t love it.
It’s an absolutely gigantic game and, quite understandably, most of my big issues are just QoL problems so, yeah, whatever.
The thing that I do find quite egregious and hard to handwave away is that they doubled down on the issues the bosses had which does either take away options or forces you to micro your build. After L150 the game really opens up and you can spec into some interesting builds. I had a really cool Arcane one going with 30 in faith so I was using all the dragon spells and having a good time. Then I ended up completing the DLC with the same build every other fucker used and I’m still really sore about that. Just the biggest anticlimax.
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Post by rhaegyr on Aug 20, 2024 8:00:30 GMT
Bayle the Dread - what an asshole for a melee build!
First phase is no problem but I'm having a fair bit of trouble on the second phase finding windows to attack.
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Aug 20, 2024 8:34:31 GMT
Cuuuurse yoooou Baaaayyyyllleeee!
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Post by Duffking on Aug 20, 2024 9:16:46 GMT
FWIW the NPC summon in there is basically meant to be used, unlike other ones it doesn't raise the boss health.
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Aug 20, 2024 9:21:10 GMT
The downside of course being, that he doesn't shut up.
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Post by rhaegyr on Aug 20, 2024 9:25:46 GMT
Um, I don't think that's something I have (trying to be as spoiler free as possible).
I'm guessing it's the guy who was wailing on the floor and cursing Bayle?
I ended up next to Bayle after trying to find a bloody map piece in the east of the map!
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