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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 12:17:01 GMT
Some things to note though: some of the optional dual bosses in 1 were really not balanced to be fought together and are indeed a pain, and since I haven't played the DLCs there could very well be more anger-inducing bosses there, that I haven't faced.
I'm also not at all attempting to slight Sekiro here. It's undoubtedly an amazing game with great gameplay. I'm just of the opinion that, in my experience, the Niohs offer a much more freeform approach, with no boss truly requiring a respec (I think I respecced once in each game, and neither one was brought about by any specific enemy) and a good bit of freedom even within the constraints of a build.
Even with my view that every build likes a bit of Onmyo, that can easily begin and end with Sloth for boss fights, Divination for exploration and maybe an appropriate elemental imbue (a base-level spell). Extraction is mostly pointless if you're not building around it with other buffs and/or passive bonuses, all the other buffs and debuffs can be circumvented by being good enough not to need them... Very little engagement is actually required if you don't want it IME.
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 12:20:31 GMT
In the end though, it all comes down to preference. If you prefer the tighter, more skill-based Sekiro fighting instead of the more RPG-y, build-based Nioh fighting, more power to you  |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 15, 2023 12:25:49 GMT
Yeah, I think Niohs bosses are among the fairest and least bullshit of any souls game. I never really felt like I had to respec other than maybe equipping different talismans and you generally feel like its a fight/duel rather than hacking away at an immovable lump. You can generally give most bosses a run for their money even on the first go as they arent just bullshit memory tests.
The problem, really, is that some bosses are a bit over-tuned for the stage they appear on and come way too early. No bosses really remain in the 'this is absolute bullshit' category and by the time they start repeating on side missions, you generally kerb stomp them. Whereas, for example, the bosses on Elden Ring are just dumb Simon Says pattern recognition exams whenever you hit them.
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Nov 15, 2023 12:56:43 GMT
I thought Nioh 1 had more bullshit bosses than Nioh 2. It's telling that I just completely abandoned some of the dual boss match ups in the first game, but annihilated absolutely everything in the second one. Either way though, the bosses in both games are a definite highlight personally. They are fucking brilliant fun. Elden Ring, by comparison, has some of the worst boss encounters ever experienced in a souls-like.
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Post by bichii2 on Nov 15, 2023 13:39:15 GMT
I think I've completed most souls like games and they've all got somewhat bs bosses when you are on your first run.
Nioh 1 deffo up there though.
I feel the from game bosses you can beat on skill if you don't have the right gear and getting better gear can make them easier and sometimes even easy. Nioh bosses are beaten on builds. Sure you can actually beat them purely on skill but if you don't have the gear the are ridiculous.
Wo long was much better than nioh for bosses. They were a fun challenges without the controller breaking rage.
I'm assuming anyone here saying nioh bosses weren't rage inducing spent time in the inventory (rightly so) and having a decent character. For the most part I ignored all the nioh litter that clogged up the game and just had some generic characters where I was guessing what to upgrade and tweak as it all so convoluted so I never actually learnt what all the systems did.
So yeah I guess I meant to say if you didn't bother learning all the systems in nioh, because they were a bit of a mess, life was hard.
I guess the same can be said for sekiro. Not the messy systems but I remember at the time people were used to playing it like dark souls and getting annihilated. Perhaps from could have explained the new combat better. I remember getting rage at genichiro, ape, owl, last boss and probably some more. Once I "got" it then it became probably my favourite from software game ever and definitely by far my favourite for boss battles as they are a joy to go through each and every time.
Ps nioh 2 rocks and I really should re buy it. I have it on PS4 but that's gathering dust under the bed.
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Post by Samildanach on Nov 15, 2023 13:51:06 GMT
I'm plodding my way through the first game and while it was debatable whether I was enjoying it in the first two regions, I have really got into it since, especially in the great fifth region. The level design, while never reaching FromSoftware's best works, has improved as the game goes on, the ninja mansion and the big battlefield being especially highlights.
It's the best of the Souls-likes I've played (though stacked up against Ashen and the original Lords of the Fallen isn't great competition to be fair) but for me comes in under all FromSoftware's I've played (Demon's through to DSIII so far).
The combat in Nioh is undoubtedly good, but I prefer the simplicity of the Souls games combat. I find it the same with shmups that utilise all the buttons on a controller rather than just a few, it slightly spoils my enjoyment when I lose from failings to remember which damn button I was wanting to press to get the desired result. Nioh very much is like that as I need to flick between different short cut menus mid combat and end up switching weapons by accident or getting the wrong menu and using the wrong item. I also can never be bothered to read and learn the various button combinations for certain moves (lazy I know). It does allow for great variety undoubtedly, but for the way my brain works, it isn't quite my bag; hence preferring the Souls games.
The bosses are all a reasonable standard (Umi-bozu being the worst so far) but I haven't found one that reaches the heights of FromSoftware's best. They all seem to go one of two ways, either I get murdered pretty quickly or they die rather easily. I rarely felt I had to knuckle down and learn the 'dance' that one does against the Fume Knights, Pontiffs and Ludwigs of FromSoftware. Instead it is the case of having good enough equipment, managing Ki and using the right spells/items before mullering them.
My post seems overly negative and I must admit to really enjoying it now. Far better than many other games I have played over the last few years to be honest.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 15, 2023 16:41:09 GMT
Oh, shit - did I start a thing? I might have started a thing  Prior to Nioh, the closest I'd got to a Soulslike (cf. Soulsborne) game involved fiddling about with the demo versions of Code Vein and The Surge, so I'm certainly no kind of authority on this genre. I need to make that clear from the outset.
I'll respectfully disagree with Wunty and Nick regarding Elden Ring's bosses, which I thoroughly enjoyed throughout.
Most of the problems I had with Nioh 1's bosses were based upon extra bullshit that was seemingly added in for the sake of it, rather than the actual boss itself. Take Umi-Bozu, for example - laser beam of death? No problem! Learn the tell and figure out how to avoid it. Being able to fall into the water and die instantly, either while standing near the boss or via random holes in the arena? Big problem! It's just obnoxious.
Or look at Hino-Enma: she's very fast, extremely aggressive, and surprisingly lethal for the third boss (second, if you ignore the tutorial!) in the game. She has melee and ranged attacks; combos and lunges; and even a grab, in her second phase. Did she really need a paralysing ability as well? It's as though the devs built a tough-but-fair encounter, then added one more block to the wobbling Jenga tower.
In Nioh 2, it's the inevitable Dark Realm phase of each boss fight that irks me (and the overuse of adds during these stages, which never fails to feel cheap). My build/playstyle doesn't have a big-dick damage element to it, so I end up repeatedly baiting whichever attack I'm able to Burst Counter - satisfying in its own way, but also antithetical to the fast-paced hack and slash combat the rest of the game offers.
Of course, the above is entirely subjective. One person's 'cheap bullshit' is another's 'fair challenge', after all! No game is 100% beyond reproach (aside from Kena, of course).
And again, in spite of my sporadic occasional constant bellyaching, I really did enjoy Nioh (and am enjoying Nioh 2 just as much, if not marginally more). I'm looking forward to playing Wo Long, and I'm sure I'll pick up Rise of the Ronin whenever that comes out.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 15, 2023 16:46:42 GMT
The design of the bosses in Elden Ring are up there with the best but I just found the process of beating them to be among the worst of the entire genre. Its mainly due to them being balanced for muliplayer/summons so its just a pain in the arse to solo them.
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 16:52:36 GMT
Thing is, Hino-Enma's paralysis is exactly the kind of gimmick that I mentioned can be easily countered if you start looking at your options more. Yes, the first time you'll get caught out, and die. You might spend a couple more times trying to just dodge it, and either succeed or still die. Then you'll look at your inventory (or someone else will tell you to  ) and... Ooh, what's this here? Anti-paralytic Needles? Well, don't mind if I do! (This sounds condescending as heck as I'm typing it out, I don't mean it that way at all!) Then there's Umi-Bozu and using Hyottoko Masks to shred it and the braziers on the level to eliminate its adds (the pitfalls are indefensible though). Or a Nioh 2 DLC boss (and Nue, kind of) being defanged by Lightningstop. Or even Orochi and Osakabe losing some danger level by using Daion-Jin Sake for the omni-elemental resistance. Point being, there usually is an option to at least mitigate some things, if you look for it. |
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 15, 2023 16:55:12 GMT
I don't remember any particulary terrible or unfair bosses in Nioh and I didn't engage with the RPG mechanics or loot systems. The loot was such a mess and everything became obsolete so quickly that it wasn't worth paying attention to any attached stats. I just went with whatever light armour had the highest number and looked alright and put points into whatever weapon I was using (think I started with spear/katana and then switched to dual katanas)
I've never bothered with magic or anything fancy in any souls game so every boss is just a case of learning the patterns until you can win. Never had a boss that couldn't be beaten that way. Builds and specialised equipment certainly aren't a necessity and a lot of the time the strategies people suggest tend to undermine the challenge in my opinion. Of course a boss or enemy is going to be easier if it's moving at half the speed you are. I wouldn't call that a strategy (this is also why I can't understand someone being opposed to an easy mode but being perfectly happy to use something like that)
I think Sekiro is probably the better game but I'd sooner play Nioh again as you can bumble about more and have more options. I loved Sekiro but I'm not not sure if I could be arsed to put the time and effort in to learn it all again for what would essentially be the exact same experience. I tend to find souls games quite relaxing (they're challenging but you can't fail and the worst that can happen is you lose some souls which I've never found that devastating) but I wouldn't say that about Sekiro
I've been thinking about picking up a souls game as it's been ages since I last played one
What is Wo Long missing in terms of mechanics from Nioh? If it's basically Nioh without all the loot or magic, that sounds ideal
Might go for Lords of the Fallen but the performance on series X sounds a bit wanky
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 15, 2023 16:58:45 GMT
For the record, I didn't find Hino-Enma difficult at all. You can read and avoid all her shit and I seem to remember you can reliably either knock her out of the air or lay into her after that attack. I had a very nimble character with light armour so was always dodging
The falling in the water stage was pretty bad at times but I mostly just found it funny. Maybe I just have more patience
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 16:58:53 GMT
My previous post said, I do also generally find that Nioh's boss fights encourage an aggressive approach compared to other Souls games, Dark Realm or not... And conversely, that when you do have to turtle up and fight with attrition, things become frustrating. As an example, I usually saved videos of my boss fights after winning (if I could figure out how to upload them from PS5 short of starting a proper YouTube account or something, I would have posted some 😅). My Orochi video I selected the three minute option and it barely caught half the fight... Meanwhile, with Hundred-Eyes I chose one minute and it caught part of the preceding cutscene too! Quite the difference here, and it's pretty much entirely because Orochi just isn't made to be rushed |
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wunty
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Post by wunty on Nov 15, 2023 17:01:13 GMT
It's got loot and magic. The combat is too basic imo compared to Nioh. It all gets a bit one note.
As I keep saying though, it's a good game in it's own right and I would still recommend it to anyone that likes Nioh 1/2. Essentially what I found disapppinting was:
Inferior level design
Graphically inferior to Nioh 2 (in conjunction with the above, there were no levels that I thought had any particular atmosphere or "wow" moments comparible to, say, the inverted temple of Nioh 2)
Inferior enemy variety
Inferior enemy design
Simpler combat mechanics
Simpler and more uninspiring loot
Inferior boss fights
However. Still a good game.
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Nov 15, 2023 17:02:55 GMT
What is Wo Long missing in terms of mechanics from Nioh? If it's basically Nioh without all the loot or magic, that sounds ideal Might go for Lords of the Fallen but the performance on series X sounds a bit wanky I'm not sure tbh, I loved Wo Long, flawed though it may be, and appreciated its streamlined approach to builds. There is a lot of redundant loot still, though not as much as Nioh. LOTF: I've said it elsewhere, it could and hopefully will be brilliant, but steer clear of the series X version right now. |
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 17:11:11 GMT
Aunt Alison Compared to Nioh, Wo Long had a lot less to sift through re: equipment passives, set bonuses etc, much simpler combat (your weapons only have a few basic combos and a maximum of two weapon arts) and magic I found is kind of just... there barring one or two spells per element. The parry system is mostly Sekiro with a bit of Nioh 2/Lies of P in that enemies have telegraphed "red" attacks that swing combat greatly if you parry them. The big combat gimmick is that your stamina is kind of a swinging pendulum you have to manage: using attacks/magic and dodging pushes you to the red, parrying attacks (especially the big red attacks) pushes you to the blue. You're still able to fight unless you're all the way in the red, but you risk tiring yourself out... And conversely, being in the blue makes your weapon skills and magic stronger. It sounds a bit weird in words (or maybe I'm just poor at explaining it), but it's a lot more intuitive in practice.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 15, 2023 17:14:16 GMT
Sounds like it might be worth playing, especially as you can't get Nioh on Xbox anyway
One thing I really liked about Nioh and something that made it much more fair than other soulsy style games is that enemies were subject to the same rules as you. They also have stamina bars that you can see and are fucked if they run out
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 15, 2023 17:18:50 GMT
What is Wo Long missing in terms of mechanics from Nioh? If it's basically Nioh without all the loot or magic, that sounds ideal Might go for Lords of the Fallen but the performance on series X sounds a bit wanky I'm not sure tbh, I loved Wo Long, flawed though it may be, and appreciated its streamlined approach to builds. There is a lot of redundant loot still, though not as much as Nioh. LOTF: I've said it elsewhere, it could and hopefully will be brilliant, but steer clear of the series X version right now. Are the devs making an effort to fix it? Is it ever likely to run well? I watched the DF video and it didn't sound too bad on series X - worst case seemed to be stuttering when loading some areas and needing to sometimes quit and reload the game after an hour or two of playtime. I could probably live with that
Bloodborne has performance issues as well and that's never bothered me and DS infamously had Blight Town
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 17:19:43 GMT
And, for an earlier topic that I missed, I'll also have to disagree that Elden Ring had horrible bosses. They weren't all winners, certainly, but for the most part I did enjoy them. Even the Godskin Duo was somewhat fun... on my second playthrough with the trumpet at least Probably the most frustrating part was having to fight Radagon plus Elden Beast every time, which I feel Nioh 1 did better (if you beat Kelley before Orochi, you only have to deal with Orochi afterwards)... But even that wasn't really a dealbreaker, just tougher than your average two-phase boss. |
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 17:21:50 GMT
I'm not sure tbh, I loved Wo Long, flawed though it may be, and appreciated its streamlined approach to builds. There is a lot of redundant loot still, though not as much as Nioh. LOTF: I've said it elsewhere, it could and hopefully will be brilliant, but steer clear of the series X version right now. Are the devs making an effort to fix it? Is it ever likely to run well? I watched the DF video and it didn't sound too bad on series X - worst case seemed to be stuttering when loading some areas and needing to sometimes quit and reload the game after an hour or two of playtime. I could probably live with that
Bloodborne has performance issues as well and that's never bothered me and DS infamously had Blight Town
The first few patches haven't had much of anything performance-related afaik... And, unfortunately, there are cases where it actually gets worse than Blighttown, even on Performance mode (don't even bother with Quality, seriously). There's been more discussion about it in its own thread as well. |
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Post by FlexibleFeline on Nov 15, 2023 17:26:05 GMT
I'm not sure tbh, I loved Wo Long, flawed though it may be, and appreciated its streamlined approach to builds. There is a lot of redundant loot still, though not as much as Nioh. LOTF: I've said it elsewhere, it could and hopefully will be brilliant, but steer clear of the series X version right now. Are the devs making an effort to fix it? Is it ever likely to run well? I watched the DF video and it didn't sound too bad on series X - worst case seemed to be stuttering when loading some areas and needing to sometimes quit and reload the game after an hour or two of playtime. I could probably live with that
Bloodborne has performance issues as well and that's never bothered me and DS infamously had Blight Town
I mean, it is playable for sure, and you'll spend most of your time not really thinking about the issues to be fair. But then it will just go tits up - usually not entirely randomly, as discussed in the LOTF thread, it's areas that are heavy on particle effects - the Fen, Calrath etc. But it's happened elsewhere and it can genuinely end up being a meagre handful of FPS, a bizarre slideshow. Your first question is the key though - there's been no evidence that they've tried to fix this so far, even while they've patched other stuff across the versions. And that does annoy me. It really bloody annoys me, tbh. I've no idea why it's much worse on series X but I would have bough the PS5 version if I'd known. |
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 15, 2023 21:34:49 GMT
Further underscoring the importance of both bitching on Font Geek and taking a break, I got past Ryomen Sukuna on my second attempt this evening.
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Post by bichii2 on Nov 15, 2023 21:48:18 GMT
I enjoyed wo long more. Sure it's easy to argue nioh 2 is the better game but wo long cuts out all the extra salad filler I'm not interested in and just gives me all the meat. The combat is so much fun and the bosses were a pleasure throughout to beat.
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 15, 2023 21:52:38 GMT
Further underscoring the importance of both bitching on Font Geek and taking a break, I got past Ryomen Sukuna on my second attempt this evening. Nothing better than a good venting session to get the universe to throw you a bone* *this may not always work |
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 15, 2023 23:28:57 GMT
By contrast, I only needed one attempt against Boar Boy to realise that it wasn't going to happen tonight, and if I didn't want to go to bed angry, I'd be better off quitting while I wasn't too far behind.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Nov 16, 2023 0:00:27 GMT
You are enjoying it though yeah
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 16, 2023 0:03:05 GMT
I am |
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 16, 2023 0:16:20 GMT
By contrast, I only needed one attempt against Boar Boy to realise that it wasn't going to happen tonight, and if I didn't want to go to bed angry, I'd be better off quitting while I wasn't too far behind. Katsuie is one of those bosses that, looking back, definitely has a rather glaring issue (they paired a relatively small arena with a boss that fights like a bull) and yet he didn't really leave an impression on me -even though he came uncomfortably close to killing me!- until I rewatched my video just now... I think I was settling into my build a little too much by this point He's got gobs of health and punishing attacks, but relatively fragile Ki (I even got a deathblow on him once, that almost never happens in 2) and a big weakness to Water. Having a Purity-infused weapon helps a lot with attacking his Ki, and Water-based spells (especially the Water Familiar, if you have it) both attack his weakness and trigger Confusion when combined with Purity. (And the Familiars in general plus Extraction are like chocolate and peanut butter, but I've prattled on about that spell enough by now ) Alternatively, you could try poisoning him and focusing on dodging/blocking his attacks... And if you've got any attacks or consumables that aim for his head, you can break his tusks off and both cripple his Ki and render him unable to use his charging attacks, at least until he regenerates them (but I hear this takes a while). He's pretty bad all in all, but you've gotten through worse already, you can make bacon out of him |
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 16, 2023 0:25:09 GMT
(Damn, I played that fight horribly at the end, looking at it now... He should have been dead the moment I used Yokai Shift and instead he got me to less than 100 health... Definitely a "How not to finish a fight" Edit: yeah, him and especially the next one were a major case of me not taking my own advice. Way, way too passive, the type of play that should be reserved for Dojo missions ) |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Nov 16, 2023 7:34:49 GMT
Oh yeah, pig man. I played him pre-nerf and I take back everything I said about the bosses. The only time in both games and DLC packs that I summoned just to get through it.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 16, 2023 20:17:03 GMT
My second attempt at Shibata Katsuie got me agonisingly close to victory...
... Before I died, then spent another hour at it before finally prevailing.
C'est la vie, I guess.
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) and... Ooh, what's this here? Anti-paralytic Needles? Well, don't mind if I do! (This sounds condescending as heck as I'm typing it out, I don't mean it that way at all!)
