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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 20, 2023 20:54:55 GMT
Technically, the last two missions were the epilogue mission, Hide leaving with Mumyo setting up the events of the DLC  The thing with Nioh 2 is that it starts as a prequel and ends as a sequel to 1: Everything up to and including the last fights with Tokichiro and Kashin Koji (aka Man With The Staff™) is a while before Nioh 1, and acts as 2's "main" story. Then Nioh 1, its epilogue and its DLCs all happen while Hide is containing Otakemaru's spirit in the temple (hence why Nobunaga is dead and can be resurrected by Kelley, Ieyasu is the third and last unifier of Japan, William has Saoirse with him in 2 and is now chasing Maria, and the Nine-Tailed Fox -who you may have noticed fleeing the temple before the Shuten Doji fight- appears in 1's DLC). In fact, everybody that appears in the cutscene where William's spirit Saoirse resonates with Hide is someone William met during the first game or its DLC! Then, Nioh 2's epilogue consists of William finding you and you foiling Maria's and Otakemaru's plans for good, and Nioh 2's main story is finished, paving the way for some more time travel with the DLCs. |
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Nov 20, 2023 20:56:22 GMT
Awesome. Thanks for all your help, young man!
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Post by JuniorFE on Nov 20, 2023 20:56:50 GMT
Also apparently you can't post twice in 10 seconds, as I just found out (having my second post ready to paste) |
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rajin
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Post by rajin on Nov 20, 2023 23:05:41 GMT
I think Nioh 2 DLC is pretty good. Specifically the level design and bosses. I still feel they could have introduced more enemies.
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 1, 2023 14:22:10 GMT
*Tries Nioh 2 NG+ on a whim a couple days ago* *Very first main mission* *Yamanba (crazy knife grandma) as the very first enemy* *Dark Realm right off the bat, and to dispel it you have to kill the used-to-be-optional Gozuki* "Ah, so that's how it's going to be. All right. Bring it."  |
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 1, 2023 14:31:18 GMT
Fun and games with the changes aside, I do really like how Nioh handles its NG+es. Not only do you get a full set of divine weapons from the final boss in NG, to set you up (and in NG+ in 2 his mission gives a Yasakani Magatama, a very important accessory for any serious build setup) but you only have to beat any few missions in NG+ to unlock the final mission and get to the next level by beating that.
Effectively, you can skip every single mission that gave you trouble (I haven't finished a single main mission besides the very first one, and I've already unlocked the final region) and just do duels or short side missions instead. And said side missions can very often be effectively skipped with the Catwalking/Sneak Thief Ninjutsu scrolls and just running to the end objective, so you can more or less get to NG+2 and on and really start getting into the meat of builds, Graces and such in a matter of hours! Not to mention there's zero risk in doing so, since even if you get in over your head you can return to previous difficulty levels at any time!
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 1, 2023 14:45:30 GMT
And now for something I don't really like, for a change: Farming for smithing texts and boss weapon skills. Not necessarily because the drop rates are bad (I mean, they kind of are, but rare random drops in an RPG, what else is new) but rather because each boss has a large pool of texts they can drop, many of which can be dropped by multiple bosses, so it's difficult to actually get the specific one you're aiming for. While smithing texts are removed from the pool once you get them once (so in theory, beat a boss enough times to exhaust their pool and you will get the one you're looking for eventually) most bosses have a mission to run through before them, often a lengthy main one. The best way to actually farm them, therefore, is to rest at the shrine closest to them, beat them, and quit to the title screen if you don't get the text you want instead of finishing the mission, to reset to just before the fight... except obviously, the game doesn't remove any texts from the pool this way (since you never saved having picked them up), and when there's nine texts you don't care about and one you want, don't expect RNJesus to be merciful Of course, the above may or may not be influenced by me farming Yoshimoto for his armour text for hours, getting damn near everything else he drops besides it, including both his weapon skills, and only then thinking to look at the Forge menu and discovering I had it since before I started farming...*facepalm* Oh well, at least I picked up some nice other texts (and got much better at fighting) for my troubles |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 1, 2023 20:55:28 GMT
It was even worse, they actually improved drop rates quite a bit. It took me hours to get the master swordsman text
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rajin
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Post by rajin on Dec 4, 2023 0:35:09 GMT
It was even worse, they actually improved drop rates quite a bit. It took me hours to get the master swordsman text I think trying to farm all the unique skills feels even worse. So many cool and really powerfull skills are locked away in specfic (side) missions and bosses with atrocious drop rates. The smithing text was a issue in Nioh 1 and I feel they simply chose not to adress it. I anyway have a lot of gripes with loot in Nioh but can appreciate how it can really change the way you se a weapon (ki reduction for specific stances and increased break). |
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 10, 2023 22:57:07 GMT
Reporting back with the Nioh 2 DLC('s main missions) finished! With the caveat that I had done NG+ and a bit of NG+2 first then switched back to NG for the DLC (so I had a quite easier time of it compared to someone coming directly from the end of NG), there were some very enjoyable fights to be had, especially if you recognize just who it is you're fighting with/against. From (spoilered in case anyone hasn't played them and wants to) Umi-Bozu but actually good(!), Lightning Gods of Yomi aka "Use Lightningstop you dumbass!" and Shuten-Doji in his prime, to essentially a mirror match vs Raikou, Otakemaru 2.0 Nightmare Boogaloo and a frickin' Hayabusa ancestor, and everything in between (plus whatever is in the side missions I haven't done yet) it was a blast all the way through, and one that I doubt would be that much more frustrating without my overlevelledness And with that, my increasingly weird (seriously, from 2, to 1, back to 2 and back again...) Nioh journey's last stop is the first game's DLC... Although considering Nioh 1, unlike the sequel, seems to expect you to play NG+ at least before going into the expansions, that might be a while yet... |
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 12, 2023 17:53:03 GMT
Oy vey. So remember when I was comparing Nioh 1 to Nioh 2 and mentioned that it felt like there were less oneshots happening in 2? Oh how unfortunately right I was... Full set of heavy armour, Divine rarity and appropriately levelled, plus Steel Talisman? Yeah no, any half-serious enemy will still two-shot you at best on NG+ and up (it's not quite as bad in NG). What's that? You debuffed their attack? Good for you, you might manage to take... an extra hit or two. I guess the compensation is that Living Weapon is way stronger than Yokai Shift as a super mode, but even then, it's kill or be killed... Couple that with Extraction Talisman being noticeably slower compared to 2, Life Gain on Amrita Absorption being harder to stack and said heavy armour being, well, heavy, thereby typically tanking your Ki management (hello, enforced grinding and/or respeccing if you weren't already pumping Stamina) and things get noticeably rough. It's not all doom and gloom though. I managed to beat the Onmyo Mastery mission painlessly this time (surprisingly so, considering how much grief it had given me when I last tried it), so I can actually wear said heavy armour set instead of relying on a hat for casting speed! And boy, when they say spells cast on yourself cast instantly, they mean fucking instantly! As in, "the animation doesn't even happen" instantly |
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 16, 2023 12:07:59 GMT
Well, notify the writers of the Oxford English Dictionary, as it turns out, "a while yet" means "five days" As enjoyable as the whole experience still was, it did sort of suffer from certain issues. For one, there's a glut of new human bosses and elite enemies with comparatively fewer Yokai, and while that works well in the narrative (basically the entirety of the Sanada Braves telling Maria to take her Amrita and go pound sand), it's difficult to make that many human elites feel unique to fight. The level curve was also very steep as you progressed, you either had to double back and play the main game's higher difficulties every so often or finish NG+ first (my choice) to keep up. It's perhaps unfair of me to judge it in relation to a sequel that hadn't been made at the time, but Nioh 2 handled both of those issues better (balanced number of new arrivals between humans/Yokai without sacrificing variety, and a much smoother level curve). The levels and bosses were still enjoyable for the most part though. And it helps that the devs made the sub-mission Greater Demon Hunting accessible from the beginning of any difficulty you unlocked, so farming was a cinch, even in Way of the Demon where more enemies start spawning. I also discovered my love for the Kusarigama, in particular a tasty little number called Reaper, basically the Dual Swords' Water Sword skill but tied to a more versatile moveset overall. Not overly helpful on human bosses, but Yokai... Let's just say that there was no shortage of shredded demon meat And with that, barring any higher difficulty escapades, my Nioh journey is now fully complete! (at least until Rise of the Ronin comes out...) Ulythium I feel like this was in part thanks to you indirectly encouraging me to reconsider having left Nioh 1 in the pile of shame, so thanks! If you want to try the DLCs (of both games) for yourself sometime down the line, I think you'll find them to be very much worth your time  |
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Post by MercenaryZoan on Dec 16, 2023 12:45:38 GMT
What ends up becoming the main attraction of Nioh 1's three DLCs, for those who stick with the game and play it to completion, is the Abyss (you unlock all its 999 floors once you clear Queen's Eyes on "Way of the Nioh"); the strongest gear with exclusive skills/graces can only spawn there. It comes with a lot of repetition, but if you care to become as strong as you can be, the DLC missions won't be enough (EDIT: long story short, it's a harder version of 2's Underworld/Depths).
For me the first game is the superior one, Nioh 2 did some things right, but in other aspects it is worse than the first game.
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Post by Samildanach on Dec 16, 2023 18:59:45 GMT
I've been slowly working my way through the first game's three dlc (currently half way through the second) and very much agree with Junior's comments above. So far only one new Yokai boss and four humans. While they don't come across like a cheapo souls NPC boss (Gank Squad, Forgotten Madman, Spear of the church and the like), they don't do a great deal lot to differentiate themselves either, other than Masamune's Living Weapon specific attacks.
The levels themselves are fine, pretty much on par with the main game tbh; but as usual not much in the way of wow moments so far, though I quite liked the flaming arrow rain mechanic in a recent level in dlc 2 to be fair.
I'll soldier on till the last boss of the third dlc is done then drop it, as I have zero interest in repeating it all on a higher difficulty. Grinding through repeat content for higher levels of the same equipment to beat stronger versions of the same bosses seems to be a waste of time to me. It's not like I haven't got a hundred other games to play still!
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Post by MercenaryZoan on Dec 16, 2023 19:28:18 GMT
Masamune has a few exclusive dual swords attacks, but yeah, most human foes in both Nioh 1 and Nioh 2 have the same problem: shared movesets… the most original opponents in this regard are the Iga ninjas.
My opinion on grinding through powered-up versions of the same content is the opposite: I like being as strong as I can be, plus, it's practice and when I help out other players online, I actually help. EDIT: Also, equipment isn't exactly the same, again, exclusive skills/effects that only show up in a specific part of the game.
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 16, 2023 20:07:13 GMT
I'm somewhere in the middle. While they're definitely giving me the itch to go back and get stronger, I don't necessarily want to go full completionist on it. I view it as sort of comfort food-ish, something to go back to and beat some stuff up every once in a while until it stops being fun. I will say that if I were to focus on one of them at this point it would probably still be 2 after everything. It's all a matter of opinion in the end of course, but for me the sequel had: Both my favourite weapon (Fists) and more strong candidates for second favourite if I put more time into them (Splitstaff/Switchglaive alongside the Tonfa and Kusarigama) Mechanics and spells I missed in 1, such as Burst Counters, Soul Cores, the Familiar spells etc, (edit:) and the expected greater enemy variety Many more Graces available outside of the Abyss equivalent, contributing to builds and the feeling of getting stronger (plus AFAIK there's no guaranteed early Yasakani Magatama in 1, giving one in the sequel, even if weak, is another incentive) Combat that feels better balanced overall, even aside from LW being a bit OP with less investment in 1. I'll admit the boss I was fighting when I was grousing about oneshots a few days ago was deliberately overtuned and did influence my opinion... But in general it did still feel like heavy armour/Stamina investment was more or less mandatory to survive more than two good attacks in higher difficulties/the DLC (and I'm not good enough to block/dodge everything, so they would happen at some point ), whereas in 2 I was fine even in NG++ with a light-medium armour mixture. (Also the Cracked Ochoko Cup requirement to enter the Abyss in 1 feels pretty unnecessary, so if they dropped it in 2 that's another plus. Very minor in the grand scheme of things of course) |
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Post by MercenaryZoan on Dec 16, 2023 20:28:58 GMT
I have played Nioh 1 before Nioh 2 and, well, I can't help witness that Nioh 2 managed to take one step forward and two steps back at the same time: - Soul Cores, a source of extra stats/effects… nice, too bad they're pretty much completely up to RNG, good luck getting the perfect core; - Accessories like that Yasakani, in 2 we can finally visit the blacksmith to change some of their effects, but again… the best stuff is still locked up to RNG (good luck getting the combination of star effects+grace/blessing that you're after); - Burst counter, I can't help view it as a lame excuse to be lazy and simply give us the same roster from Nioh 1 with touched-up movesets (anyone who has played the first game can recognize just how many enemies, both common and bosses have been copy->pasted in 2); - Skill points tied to specific weapons, limiting build customization; - Scrolls of the Damned/etcetera, they have nice and exclusive stuff, but again, they make optimising the build an even worse chore.
Nioh 2 is still a good game, but hell, do I miss how things work in the first one….
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 16, 2023 21:25:00 GMT
To be fair though, the RNG aspect was very much present in 1's equipment system too. In Soul Cores specifically (and with some equipment re: passives), the things you really care about most of the time are the Soul's actual move (which is fixed) and the passives it has locked (like Kasha and Shuten-Doji and his mask giving buffs on Amrita Absorption). Maybe the Attunement Cost -1, but generally no matter the Guardian Spirit you have enough to equip two good Soul Cores even without, and realistically that's all you're going to use except in extreme optimization (where, again, RNG is present everywhere)
Viewing Burst Counters as nothing but an excuse to bring back old enemies feels a little unfair to me tbh. The mechanic is present on new and old enemies both, and does make even old enemies feel fresh to fight IMO.
As for skill points, it wasn't necessarily the correct decision to make them tied to weapon type, but between reducing all learning costs to 1 point (in 1 some abilities can require 4 or more on top of prerequisite skills) and the catch-up mechanic (you gain skill points more quickly with a weapon type where your skill level is lower than your highest), you can still build a good moveset quickly nonetheless.
(Edit: I haven't gone deep enough to really make use of scrolls, but my understanding is that you only really care about the Ultimate [stat] on them -unless you're really min-maxing- on them as well, so much like Soul Cores the farming is at least reduced... Plus you can ask other players to help out by giving you theirs AFAIK)
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Post by MercenaryZoan on Dec 16, 2023 23:25:49 GMT
RNG was present in Nioh 1, too, true… but it was handled better, I'll try to elaborate a bit: - Scrolls of the Damned/etcetera. Some of them have as bonus effect "Increased drop rate of Amaterasu blessing/grace". In Nioh 1 a similar system is found in the Abyss: you prayed at its shrine and it had a new option called "Defiling", I think (I'm Italian, sorry if I'm using the wrong term)… what did it do, you fed it your divine equipment, completed four floors to transform it into an Ethereal rarity with a better chance to have a specific grace, depending on the set of floors you were on. I'll throw out made up examples… Say, you wanted Amaterasu? You tackled floors 1-5. Tatenashi? 6-11. In Nioh 2 they could have kept the drop rate of graces tied to floors of the Underworld, but no, they gave as an extra hassle to deal with… making the actual drop rate of graces in the Underworld random. You kind of hit the nail on the head, it's like I said, optimising the build, or min-maxing… it's worse in Nioh 2. The fixed effects on Soul Cores are nice, sure, but if I know for a fact that an Itsumade core can spawn with "Melee Damage +9.9%", I won't settle for a mere "Defense +5%", and the farming is made a lot worse, because I can soul match solely with another Itsumade, I can't inherit that melee damage from the Magatsu's core. It may be unfair of me to view Burst Counters like that, but in Nioh 2 I saw a lot of enemies I already knew from Nioh 1, only with a few of their attacks, not even new attacks, mind… turned into openings for such counter. Yay for originality. I expected more new faces.
Nioh 2 introduced nice features, but it also worsened things. I still enjoyed it, but it left a sour taste in my mouth due to stuff like the above.
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 17, 2023 0:03:07 GMT
Say, you wanted Amaterasu? You tackled floors 1-5. Tatenashi? 6-11. In Nioh 2 they could have kept the drop rate of graces tied to floors of the Underworld, but no, they gave as an extra hassle to deal with… making the actual drop rate of graces in the Underworld random. Actually, as far as I can find, Nioh 1 and Nioh 2 had a very similar system re: Graces in the Abyss/Underworld-Depths, namely Graces belong to three distinct pools, rotating every floor, i.e: Pool 1 drops/defiles on Floor# / 3 = X.00 (Floor number is a multiple of 3) Pool 2 drops/defiles on Floor# / 3 = X.33 (Floor number is a multiple of 3 + 1) Pool 3 drops/defiles on Floor# / 3 = X.66 (Floor number is a multiple of 3 + 2) And from there, your drop can be anything between (using Pool 1 from the first game as an example, from the fandom wiki and not Fextralife because I couldn't find such info there) Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi, Owatatsumi, Oyamatsumi, Shinatsuhiko, Susano, Takemikazuchi or Tsukuyomi. I could be wrong about Nioh 1, of course (the documentation on 1, weirdly for Fextralife, is spottier than on 2 regarding a lot of things), but even so neither of them seems to be entirely random nor a sure thing (it's not always Izanami on floor 65 for instance, but it can't be any Grace either, only from pool 3)... And it's still nice of 2 to have almost all Graces (rather than just one of the sets) drop often in the main game as well, either way In general though, we seem to be approaching the subject from different perspectives. To a min-maxer/full completionist, I agree that the extra layers of RNG in Soul Cores and Scrolls can be a big additional headache (and you absolutely should have been able to inherit Soul Core passives from at least those of the same Brute/Feral/Phantom type as the base, not just the exact same Core)... But for the average player like myself, or even someone that would go through most/all of the difficulties, Underworld/Abyss etc just without min-maxing, the additional combat and equipment options they provide are quite a joy |
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Post by MercenaryZoan on Dec 17, 2023 8:08:59 GMT
First of all, thanks for the information about drop rates. Back when I actively played Nioh 2, I've always been told that the wikis' information for it was outdated, so, never bothered checking it. Good to know things have changed.
And, yes, I speak from a completionist perspective. There's an Italian saying which kind of describes my main issue with Nioh 2, in English it would almost literally translate to:
"You've done 30, might as well go for 31," its meaning is: you've bothered to do this, take one step further and go all the way.
Nioh 2 gives me some interesting stuff, but it doesn't let me do anything worthwhile with it… can finally change some effects on the accessories, but I can't change the grace they come with at the blacksmith (not even with the Stone of Penance, it always remained the same on my attempts, at least). In case I want the perfect combination of star skills/effects+grace, I'm still stuck praying that RNG throws me a bone. Long story short, I'm annoyed that the developers inexplicably chose to tie our hands.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 28, 2023 9:51:08 GMT
I’m very much enjoying stranger of paradise on PS+. It’s weirdly not that deep but kind of complicated but still very Nioh.
It also carries over your demo progress, which is nice. Gave me a flying leap forward even though I had no idea what I was doing for ages.
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Post by uiruki on Dec 28, 2023 10:13:10 GMT
What I really liked about SoP, at least on the first run through, was the way you’d constantly be unlocking and trying new and more powerful stuff. Even without messing about with equipment you’d be getting cool new stuff to try out all the time.
Combined with the FF fan service and amazing soundtrack, it’s just loads of fun.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 28, 2023 10:16:21 GMT
Yeah, at the moment I’m just trying to unlock skill trees so I’m constantly playing different fighting styles. It’s really fun.
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Ulythium
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Post by Ulythium on Dec 28, 2023 10:26:33 GMT
Is it more of a Final Fantasy game, more of a Team Ninja game, or a 50/50 split between the two?
I'm expecting to start Wo Long tonight, and with three months to go until Rise of the Ronin, I could fit in Stranger of Paradise if I felt so inclined; however, if it's more Final Fantasy than Nioh, I'd probably give it a miss. (Nothing against FF, but never having checked out that series before, I think I'd start with XVI if I were to go down that route.)
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 28, 2023 10:30:25 GMT
Is it more of a Final Fantasy game, more of a Team Ninja game, or a 50/50 split between the two? I'm expecting to start Wo Long tonight, and with three months to go until Rise of the Ronin, I could fit in Stranger of Paradise if I felt so inclined; however, if it's more Final Fantasy than Nioh, I'd probably give it a miss. (Nothing against FF, but never having checked out that series before, I think I'd start with XVI if I were to go down that route.) The story and characters riff directly off of Final Fantasy 1 (it's kinda sorta a prequel/alternate backstory, to my understanding). The gameplay does borrow from FF with mechanics like the classes/jobs and such, but AFAIK is mostly Nioh otherwise. I'm actually finding myself wanting to give it a shot at some point as well. I know the characters have been memed to Chaos and back but the gameplay seems fun and I'm hardly a stranger to games with oddball stories... |
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 28, 2023 10:32:19 GMT
It’s not quite Nier Automata, a Nier game with Bayonettas combat engine, it’s more Nioh with a FF skin.
You’ll think ‘oh, yeah. I get this’ within minutes and you’ll be off. The setting, music and characters are all pure final fantasy but everything else is 100% team ninja.
It’s even more Nioh in the fact that there’s barely any plot, story or dialogue and the stuff that is there makes barely any sense. A talky FF game this is not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2023 16:47:28 GMT
The way the classes operate in that game was so cool. Wish we’d get that exact combat system in a Dragon’s Dogma style open world RPG, rather than literal Nioh “pick a location from a menu” set up. I really should go back to it sometime.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 28, 2023 17:26:48 GMT
Yeah, if they had Nier’d this and not stuck quite as closely to the formula, it could have been pretty special. Having this combat system in a ‘proper’ rpg setting would have been great.
I’d still pretty good but it does play it a bit safe.
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Post by uiruki on Dec 29, 2023 11:52:01 GMT
It feels to me like a good introduction to Nioh, if that makes sense. It’s much more forgiving and brings through the variety in a slightly less intimidating way.
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