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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 14:26:39 GMT
I find most talent trees crap.
Cyberpunk 2077's was crap. Every individual point made so little difference.
Assassin Creed Valhalla's was even worse.
The new World of Warcraft ones are crap.
I don't even want to look at Path of Exiles, it's revolting.
They all need to just fucking burn. It's an outdated concept.
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Post by Chopper on Dec 12, 2022 14:49:14 GMT
Salt & Sacrifice's skill tree. Made worse than it should be by having a scrollable viewing window the size of a postage stamp.
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2022 14:50:27 GMT
How many of those actually make a noticeable difference to the gameplay?
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Post by Chopper on Dec 12, 2022 14:52:10 GMT
It adds up. The weapon ones, for example (strength etc) increase the weapon damage by about 10%. However you can't mainline strength without picking up some complementary skills on the branches in between.
Edit: there are different branches for each weapon type and armour too - so bludgeons, two handers, light armour etc.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Dec 12, 2022 14:53:24 GMT
The worse one I can think of was probably AC Valhalla, a whole lot of small percentage gains in that one.
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myk
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Post by myk on Dec 12, 2022 14:56:53 GMT
Salt & Sacrifice's skill tree. Made worse than it should be by having a scrollable viewing window the size of a postage stamp.
path of exile (and yeah, it keeps going): |
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 15:01:56 GMT
I feel physically sick
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 15:03:43 GMT
Really small trees can be okay, but if they have more than, say, 20 nodes at absolute most it's too big and unfocused.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 15:07:22 GMT
I think it was Final Fantasy 12 that had a "Grid" system, which was basically a talent tree.
Except in a disgusting twist, the tiles were hidden until they were purchased.
So not only did it have the usual annoyance of talent trees, you could also spend xp on a talent that ended up being utterly useless for the build you were aiming for.
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myk
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Post by myk on Dec 12, 2022 15:08:01 GMT
the weird thing is that generally the bigger the skilltree the more likely it is that people will follow a few builds and use online guides, because trying to figure out which node is best when there's maybe twenty options to go for would take a ridiculous amount of time.
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myk
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Post by myk on Dec 12, 2022 15:18:35 GMT
Think the ideal system is to have freely swappable cards or perks, works well in Warframe and Fallout 76. The only thing I'd change in both of those is to not have perks that only have upsides, everything should have a trade off to avoid too much powercreep (stacking damage becomes mandatory in both games for high level content)
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Dec 12, 2022 15:22:39 GMT
I think it was Final Fantasy 12 that had a "Grid" system, which was basically a talent tree. Except in a disgusting twist, the tiles were hidden until they were purchased. So not only did it have the usual annoyance of talent trees, you could also spend xp on a talent that ended up being utterly useless for the build you were aiming for. Iirc they weren't completely disguised, but you could only see the tiles adjacent to uncovered ones. So long-term build planning wasn't quite possible. Not that I ever got far in FF12 anyway. |
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 15:33:39 GMT
malek86You are probably right, it's been a long while since I played it and I never really got into that game. Even partially hidden is infuriating though!
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 12, 2022 15:33:53 GMT
The worse one I can think of was probably AC Valhalla, a whole lot of small percentage gains in that one. Same. I'm fine with skill trees usually, even big ones, but Valhalla's just felt like a whole lot of half-useless padding until you got to the one node per cluster that actually had a skill or substantial buff to unlock... |
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2022 15:37:01 GMT
Salt & Sacrifice's skill tree. Made worse than it should be by having a scrollable viewing window the size of a postage stamp.
path of exile (and yeah, it keeps going): I’ve not played either game but if those nodes are making different linked impacts on your character build then I suppose I think it has distinct advantages over more mainstream games which have a skill tree and instead of allowing you to compile custom builds just has you level up everything along a linear path anyway. Those seem fairly pointless, just have a numbered level system if theres no/so little choice involved. |
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 12, 2022 15:41:26 GMT
On a related note... Also, you shouldn't be expected to, or be given the opportunity to fully complete a skill tree. ...Why? Never being able to fully complete a character's skill tree would actually put me off more than any useless nodes would, personally! I can understand not being able to complete it until late-/post-game, or needing some optional grinding to do so, like in the various Dragon Quests that have them for example, but completely unable to? I should hope that you'd at least be able to easily respec and check out the different playstyles, then, because no way am I playing through a game again just for a skill tree... This ain't Elden Ring we're talking about here  |
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Post by dangerousdave on Dec 12, 2022 15:56:37 GMT
I would argue that a skill tree isn't required if you could unlock it all. Sure you can pick and choose the order in which you unlock things, but if you're only going to unlock everything and become unstoppable, just have it all unlock automatically via a level progression system.
Skill trees become more interesting when you know what lays ahead and you need to make a choice in which direction to develop a character. It adds replay value to, if you want to pursue a different branch.
At least thats how I feel. The skill trees in FFX and Assassin's Creed are just one massive unappealing mess and feel more like a grind than a decent method for character progression.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 16:02:41 GMT
If rather things just unlock automatically.
If there there needs to be a system of choice of target just have buckets that points can be dumped into, and new abilities are learned at certain thresholds. Or just have abilities be bought by xp without a tree.
Im playing two MMOs (quite casually) at the moment, FFXIV and WoW. They both do some things well and some things shit, but I much prefer the automatically-learn-new-talents-at-thresholds/by completing quests that XIV does to the fiddly trees in WoW.
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lukasz
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Post by lukasz on Dec 12, 2022 16:21:22 GMT
The conplexity of path of exile tree is a result of the gameplay style.
There are dozens of viable skills to use giving very different style of gameplay
The skill tree is another way to customise your character.
Because of that there is so much minmaxing at this game. Not only from skills but equipment and 6 stats or more each piece has allowing massive synergies.
What you don't see in the pic is also another smaller skill tree and one more but for maps where you grind for currency and new equipment.
It is very specific type of game. It is not for everyone.
Its free as well so worth trying.
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Lizard
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Post by Lizard on Dec 12, 2022 19:32:25 GMT
Not a game mechanic as such, but when you can't pause.
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KD
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Post by KD on Dec 12, 2022 21:02:41 GMT
That type of game seems appropriate, it's the 3rd person action games trying to copy it, every single one it seems.
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malek86
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Post by malek86 on Dec 12, 2022 21:30:55 GMT
Being unable to pause is never appropriate. It's the greatest sin of the gaming industry since unskippable cutscenes, which luckily have fallen out of favor lately.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 21:37:14 GMT
Unskippable cutscenes that last 10 minutes, then have Quick Time Events thrown in suddenly at the 7:56 mark, just as you put the controller down.
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Post by Aunt Alison on Dec 12, 2022 21:54:58 GMT
I think part of the reason some games have skill trees shoe horned in is to keep rewarding the player so you chase that dopamine hit from unlocking something, especially big open world games where you need to have short term goals
I'm sure there's a hell of a lot of psychology that goes into making games these days to keep people hooked. Kind of icky or good game design - up to you
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 12, 2022 22:04:32 GMT
Tbh I can't argue against that reasoning - it doesn't actually trigger anything in me, but looking at the forums elsewhere most people are gushing over the new WoW talent trees, and that "place a point when you level " thing seems to be a big attractor for many. Last two games that I really engaged with that had talent trees were probably AC Valhalla and Cyberpunk 2077. In AC I very quickly got bored and just hit the auto allocate option. That tree was especially bad for having really dull choices. Cyberpunk 2077 almost worked for me, but in all honesty I find it really, really hard to get excited by small crit chance increases. As a counterpoint, I actually quite like the talent trees in Skyrim. They're segregated so it's easy to specialise in one particular area, and each individual tree is just small enough to not be an overwhelming mess. |
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Post by simple on Dec 12, 2022 23:18:33 GMT
I really liked how Bethesda tied progression to actually using that skill rather than totally arbitrary points allocating.
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Post by RadicalRex on Dec 12, 2022 23:59:52 GMT
In principle I like that too, but I think it's a double edged sword. On the one hand it's a natural, organic way of levelling up, especially in the early game, but levelling up certain skills can be super slow and tedious, so that in some cases I resort to skill trainers which kind of defeats the point. And I could do without chores like enchanting hundreds of daggers to get that final perk. Sometimes I wish I could just spend a point there like in Fallout and be done with it.
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Post by JuniorFE on Dec 13, 2022 0:20:55 GMT
I really liked how Bethesda tied progression to actually using that skill rather than totally arbitrary points allocating. Ye olde Final Fantasy 2 tried that. It just led to the characters beating each other up in easy fights for hours to gain stats and weapon proficiency. It's definitely not a bad system, and it does feel organic when you use it as intended, I'm just not sure there's any way to implement that sort of thing without someone, somewhere, finding a way to cheese it, honestly... Even in the Elder Scrolls games you could just spam alchemy or item/spell crafting until you had enough points in the skill to essentially be able to make "I win" buttons on command |
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Post by Bill in the rain on Dec 13, 2022 1:07:53 GMT
And you had to bunny hop everywhere to boost Athletics. Jedi Knight 1 had the best skill 'tree'  it's all you need... |
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Post by barchetta on Dec 13, 2022 1:10:51 GMT
I like open worlds as a means of escape, rather than the levelling/progression so many bolt into the game.
I'm currently playing RDR2 some 4yrs (?!) after I played it day 1 on my old One X. I never finished it on Xbox, mainly due to my penchant for filling in the map rather than following the story, so I sort of burnt out on it when the plot had me returning to places I had already seen.
This time I'm playing on PC in ultrawide and even on my 6 yr old i5/gtx1070 it looks lovely. Following the plot and about 40% through, with swathes of the map still unfinished.
The one thing that struck me - no chasing the dragon of skill trees. Sure some minor bonuses e.g. horsemanship but it feels entirely organic and much less laboured. Perhaps an argument could be made that this means the game is too easy, without need to create spikes where levelling is required. But for me it is a breath of fresh air.
Same for the map. No clutter, no icon overload. Just a couple of missions, a couple of side stories at the moment and some treasure maps to decipher.
Much is more or less stumbled upon. Serendipity in open worlds is what I like.
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