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Post by gammonbanter on Dec 5, 2021 15:49:16 GMT
I think this justifies it's own thread, especially as Alien(s) has its own one.
Um, managed to finish 'Dark Fate' this week. As a dumb action movie, it was fine. But as a Terminator movie, well it was awful!
I actually liked the Sarah Connor Chronicles and felt it was actually going somewhere when it got canned.
The three films after T2 where pale imitations (to put it mildly), but why does this franchise keep such a place in everyone's mindset, is it just part of that 80s/90s nostalgia or is it something greater?
I see there is an anime coming to Netflix which feels like a good idea and if it is anything like Castlevania it will be most welcome.
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Post by Reviewer on Dec 5, 2021 16:09:12 GMT
There was never a story to be told after T2. It went into a dead end and anything after that is just trying to find a way around that.
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Post by RadicalRex on Dec 5, 2021 16:11:56 GMT
why does this franchise keep such a place in everyone's mindset The first two are considered by many to be among the best movies of all time (rightfully), and have forever imprinted themselves on pop culture. I don't think the desire for a new one that repeats the experience is ever going away. Even if I also think there's not that much left to do with the franchise after those. |
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Dec 5, 2021 16:17:00 GMT
Disagree on Dark Fate. As a Terminator movie, it's ok. It's by far the best Terminator movie after Terminator and T2, like not even remotely a comparison. The other three stink, yeah including T3, and don't even have proper Terminator vibes. Dark Fate at least had the right vibes. If it came out fifteen years earlier people would be more keen it, but everyone is worn out the other three.
The Sarah Connor Chronicles was really good and yes got cancelled pretty much exactly as it got going for real.
People are obsessed with the series because the original two films are, to this day, extremely strong, and it always seems like a natural thing to continue. Especially considering how extremely influential both have been on SF. But T3, Salvation and Genesys were made by people who just didn't "get" Terminator. Genesys is by far the worst, with some incredibly miscasting on top of everything else.
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Post by gammonbanter on Dec 5, 2021 16:51:18 GMT
Disagree on Dark Fate. As a Terminator movie, it's ok. It's by far the best Terminator movie after Terminator and T2, like not even remotely a comparison. The other three stink, yeah including T3, and don't even have proper Terminator vibes. Dark Fate at least had the right vibes. If it came out fifteen years earlier people would be more keen it, but everyone is worn out the other three. The Sarah Connor Chronicles was really good and yes got cancelled pretty much exactly as it got going for real. People are obsessed with the series because the original two films are, to this day, extremely strong, and it always seems like a natural thing to continue. Especially considering how extremely influential both have been on SF. But T3, Salvation and Genesys were made by people who just didn't "get" Terminator. Genesys is by far the worst, with some incredibly miscasting on top of everything else. Good points! I felt the opening scene (of DF) was way too much and kind of spat on the first 2 films! I will say I loved some of the flash forwards to the future war, apart from the last one which was laughable. At this stage, with the understanding that in this film universe Judgement Day is inevitable it seems, it would be better to have the Connors become advocates for better A.I design or working out a truce with our eventual robot overlords. This could be a really good, slow pace intelligent TV show with lots of moral/philosophical drama. Or yeah, just leave it at T1 and T2. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2021 16:53:56 GMT
The first one's the only one I really like, to be honest. It's 80s as hell, but while T2 was more adventurous in its narrative, John Connor is just kind of obnoxious the entire film. Ruins the movie for me.
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Lukus
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Post by Lukus on Dec 5, 2021 17:02:05 GMT
I'm pretty sure I've seen Dark Fate, but I don't remember a single thing about it. Which is almost worse than hating it for being god awful, like Genysis was.
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Post by gammonbanter on Dec 5, 2021 17:04:33 GMT
The first one's the only one I really like, to be honest. It's 80s as hell, but while T2 was more adventurous in its narrative, John Connor is just kind of obnoxious the entire film. Ruins the movie for me. It's also, actually terrifying! I re-watched it recently and it genuinely feels like a last throw of the dice for Skynet. I felt the despair of life post judgement day and the stakes were high as a result. |
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Dec 5, 2021 17:07:30 GMT
I felt the opening scene (of DF) was way too much and kind of spat on the first 2 films! I will say I loved some of the flash forwards to the future war, apart from the last one which was laughable. At this stage, with the understanding that in this film universe Judgement Day is inevitable it seems, it would be better to have the Connors become advocates for better A.I design or working out a truce with our eventual robot overlords. This could be a really good, slow pace intelligent TV show with lots of moral/philosophical drama. Or yeah, just leave it at T1 and T2. I get where you're coming from re: the first scene, as I said to a friend when we saw it, "Oooooh some nerds on the internet gonna be mad about that!" (not that i'm not a nerd on the internet, of course), but personally, all I felt was RELIEF that that was no longer the plotline, because we'd seen three films in a row making total wank of that plotline, total and utter wank. So that being over and replaced with a different line, I was really happy about. More importantly, Cameron himself approved that scene. Weirdly few people seem to know that. I've seen dudes writing multi-page rants about Dark Fate on the basis of it "disrespecting" Cameron's movies, but Cameron wrote the story for this one (among others), and was the producer - not executive producer who might be hands-off - the actual producer. So it's like accusing Cameron "disrespecting" himself! I do think a slower-paced TV show would be the way forwards if they want to do any more. |
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Post by gammonbanter on Dec 5, 2021 17:22:32 GMT
Warning: Pedantic geek bollocks follows....
Re Dark Fate, once the Terminator achieves its objective I imagine its goal would be to either self terminate or maybe hand itself over to Cyberdyne to aid R & D - not to er, er, yeah! And doesn't Skynet realise it needs JC in order to exist? That's why the one shot deal of time travel in the first one was neat. In a film-verse where time travel is easy, nothing makes sense.
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Post by 😎 on Dec 5, 2021 17:26:49 GMT
My most disliked Terminator is T3. I just thought it was such a wasted opportunity when they could have closed the loop of having a film set during the future war and ending with Kyle Reese going back. That we had to wait for Genysisysysises for that and have it half-assed into whatever the hell that was with Jai fucking Courtney is just criminal.
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Post by drhickman1983 on Dec 5, 2021 17:36:19 GMT
Only the first two are really good.
I still think T3 is the worst of the bad bunch of further sequels, I guess Dark Fate is the best.
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Duffman5
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Post by Duffman5 on Dec 5, 2021 17:51:38 GMT
Terminator, without a doubt.
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Post by Jambowayoh on Dec 5, 2021 18:16:10 GMT
My most disliked Terminator is T3. I just thought it was such a wasted opportunity when they could have closed the loop of having a film set during the future war and ending with Kyle Reese going back. That we had to wait for Genysisysysises for that and have it half-assed into whatever the hell that was with Jai fucking Courtney is just criminal. How is Jai Courtney a thing? It's like how they tried to make Sam Worthington, a sentient piece of wood, into a thing too. |
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Post by simple on Dec 5, 2021 18:25:47 GMT
3 is probably my least favourite too. Just incredibly bland and unambitious.
And it was a 12 or something like that
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2021 18:26:40 GMT
Genesis is one of the worst films ever made.
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Dec 5, 2021 19:40:40 GMT
My most disliked Terminator is T3. I just thought it was such a wasted opportunity when they could have closed the loop of having a film set during the future war and ending with Kyle Reese going back. That we had to wait for Genysisysysises for that and have it half-assed into whatever the hell that was with Jai fucking Courtney is just criminal. How is Jai Courtney a thing? It's like how they tried to make Sam Worthington, a sentient piece of wood, into a thing too. I thought the same but then he was actually good in Stateless - an Aussie miniseries about an immigration detention centre, he was one of the leads, a guard who was kind of losing his mind. He wasn't like "OMG AMAZING" or anything but it was a good performance and judging by that you'd say "Oh he's a perfectly good actor". Not "Oh he's as wooden as fuck why is he in anything???" like you would with Genesys (or Suicide Squad). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_(TV_series)So I think the issue is that he's being hideously miscast. If he played an actual villain, or a complex character, I suspect he'd do a good job, but as a hero or anti-hero, not so much. Sam Worthington though? Yeah I've never seen him approach "good". Best i ever saw from him was in Manhunt: Unabomber, where he's the main character, and whilst he wasn't as terrible as he's been in movies, he wasn't... good... there were scenes where he was nailing it, but there were far more where he was kind of wooden, and even some where he seemed to be misunderstanding the brief. I've never been optimistic for the many, many Avatar movies to come, but that he's in them pretty much seals their fate imho. I'm not sure Cameron has ever been great at casting men though. |
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Post by RadicalRex on Dec 5, 2021 19:49:35 GMT
Generally I think horror films like Terminator and Alien are one-off affairs, because you can't recreate the horror from the first one. T2 worked because it went in a completely different direction, exploring psychological and philosophical issues and even doing some humour while still having the right amount of horror and stunts and destruction. It worked so well because it dared to be different and original and at the same time was just superbly executed.
I haven't watched Aliens in a long time, but iirc it also worked because it was different enough to Alien 1 and greatly executed.
But after that, where do you go? T3 is just a bad parody on T2, Alien 3 kind of tried to be Alien 1 again but fell flat on its nose, not least because the horror just isn't the same anymore that it was the first time. You've grown familiar to the Alien, it's lost its impact at this point.
Likewise, whatever the Terminator franchise tried to to after T2, it feels like a franchise that's done everything that can be done, only held on life support by the urge to capitalise on its legacy.
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Tomo
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Post by Tomo on Dec 5, 2021 20:00:14 GMT
Genesis is one of the worst films ever made. This. In the pantheon of films with absolutely no redeeming aspects alongside the latest Predator film and both AvP films. |
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Post by simple on Dec 5, 2021 20:33:15 GMT
Oh its not as bad as that last Predator film. Few big releases could be.
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lexw
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Post by lexw on Dec 5, 2021 21:54:09 GMT
Generally I think horror films like Terminator and Alien are one-off affairs, because you can't recreate the horror from the first one. T2 worked because it went in a completely different direction, exploring psychological and philosophical issues and even doing some humour while still having the right amount of horror and stunts and destruction. It worked so well because it dared to be different and original and at the same time was just superbly executed. I haven't watched Aliens in a long time, but iirc it also worked because it was different enough to Alien 1 and greatly executed. But after that, where do you go? T3 is just a bad parody on T2, Alien 3 kind of tried to be Alien 1 again but fell flat on its nose, not least because the horror just isn't the same anymore that it was the first time. You've grown familiar to the Alien, it's lost its impact at this point. Likewise, whatever the Terminator franchise tried to to after T2, it feels like a franchise that's done everything that can be done, only held on life support by the urge to capitalise on its legacy. I think with Terminator and T2 they're basically the same genre but there's a very different approach and scope, both are thrillers rather than horror imho. T3 just seemed like a lower-budget, weirdly non-California-set T2 (I'm sure it actually had a higher budget but...) and was total fail. Salvation does try and genre-jump, but is an incredible barely-watchable mess (tbf I barely remember it). Genesys is just a very, very bad thriller with terrible casting. I mean it's bad on so many levels I don't think the mistake was being a thriller. Dark Fate tries to pare things back a bit, goes for a shock from the start, and has a more T1/2-ish vibe than any of the rest, but in the end is mostly just a re-work of T2 with some T1-ish elements, and I think if it'd changed genre it might have done better. With Alien/Aliens it's more like straight horror movie vs a war movie with horrific elements, they're different genres with good directors and scripts so both work well. Alien3 fails as you describe by trying to be horror again. Alien Resurrection actually did try something different, it's kind of a heist movie, but mostly it's just a confused mess with a script with okay one-liners but no cohesion (and none of the one-liners are as good as Aliens, sadly), so that screws it up. Prometheus tries to be both 2001 and the dumbest idiot-ball-based horror movie you've ever seen, and fails at being 2001 because it's moronic and has no actual ideas, and fails at being a horror movie because it just illustrates what Alien did right. I haven't seen Covenant but it sounds like it too tries to be Alien. I'm pretty sure if anyone had tried to actually continue from Aliens, and, say, genre-jump again to say, a Western with horror elements, that might actually have worked. It would have required a more coherent vision than Resurrection though. So I think the main issue is just crap-ness. But trying to change genre might help too. |
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Post by kronos on Dec 5, 2021 22:14:10 GMT
Something like Bone Tomahawk except with a predator would work fine. Arnie should have been dropped from the franchise after T1 imo. Its not his performance that makes that film great. I like T2 but making a friendly terminator and keeping Arnie around basically fucked the entire franchise. I think Alien still has legs but they just need to do it right. Be interesting to see how this tv series turns out(probably be crap but you never know). Trouble with alien(and alot of other films) is when they went to cg and started showing it too much. Plus all the nods, winks and beats taken from the originals, general dumbing down of films to cater for the biggest audience who unfortunately are mostly morons, at least in the studio's eyes.
So many films these days have such clumsy writing, obvious exposition or a character will say something technical and then another one immediately translates that so the thicko's in the audience can understand.
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Post by retro74 on Dec 5, 2021 22:29:12 GMT
Terminator is clearly the better movie IMO but I like T2 more, which is a bit strange
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Post by kronos on Dec 5, 2021 22:33:52 GMT
First time I saw T2 in the cinema the local nutter was in, muttering to himself and laughing at inappropriate moments. Went back a second time so I could actually enjoy it.
PS I highly recommend the extended version of T2 if you haven't seen it. Fills in alot of blanks.
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anephric
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Post by anephric on Dec 5, 2021 22:37:54 GMT
I still haven't seen Dark Fate. After Geneshyte and the general meh response to DF when it came out, I haven't mustered the will to commit two hours of my life to something that seems so m e h.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2021 22:38:53 GMT
I thought it was alright. Definitely the best one since 2.
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Post by Chopsen on Dec 5, 2021 22:42:47 GMT
Terminator is clearly the better movie IMO but I like T2 more, which is a bit strange Not that strange. The film was clearly marketed to teenagers, and I'm guess you were born in '74, making you the target audience. You tend to be sentimental about stuff you liked as a teenager.
Interestingly, I never realised it was cut and then re-release uncut in 2001 which I just found out from google. There was also an 18 cut released on laserdisc.
Anyway, on topic: I have seen all the terminator films, and I could not tell you a single thing about any of the ones after T2. They just blurred in to one, including the most recent one which I was in the last year. They're all just a bit wank.
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Post by kronos on Dec 5, 2021 22:44:26 GMT
I re-watched Salvation some time ago and it has gone up in my estimation. Flawed certainly but going in the right direction. Getting rid of the time travel element was a big plus in my book. The terminator eels not so much.
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Bongo Heracles
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Post by Bongo Heracles on Dec 5, 2021 23:02:15 GMT
1, 2, 6, 3, 5, 4 for me.
One and two switched places since they turned off the EG forums and I actually watched T1 again.
But, really, other than the first two you are just ranking best of the worst. The other four are genuinely worthless.
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Post by MolarAm🔵 on Dec 5, 2021 23:48:06 GMT
I kind of admired Genisys for its willingness to screw with the timeline stuff. It's still pretty bad, but for me it's the best out of the ones that aren't 1 and 2.
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